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Factual accuracy

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Dear Bandurist, let's not use borders from a different time (post-Soviet annexation) to call correct borders "vandalism." There is nothing in the augmented content which is incorrect. Please do not revert again, and especially not with discusssion. VЄСRUМВА  ♪  03:37, 20 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Is he a historian of not? Ostap 04:59, 20 August 2009 (UT

No, he is not a historian. He has no qualifications as a historian. His daughter Ewa Siemaszko is also not a historian but an engineer whose focus is military technology. The Polish wikipedia and the various sites about him in Polish do not have him listed as a historian, but as a lawyer, and a successful publicist. He has collaborated with historians, and has made a significant contribution to the collecting of oral histories and accounts but has no formal training as a historian Bandurist (talk) 07:41, 20 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You do not have to have formal training to be a historian - it's not like law in US where you got to pass the bar. For a person to be considered a historian on Wikipedia it is sufficient that he is referred to as such by reliable sources.radek (talk) 13:56, 20 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Although "historian" can be used to describe amateur and professional historians alike, it is reserved more recently for those who have acquired graduate degrees in the discipline. He would be correctly described as an amateur historian. This is required since this ia a BLP. Bobanni (talk) 01:36, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Huh? "Reserved more recently" by whom and when? No, you do not need to have a graduate degree to be a historian, though it helps. You need to be recognized as a historian by other historians and by reliable sources. And BLP ain't got nothing to do with it - that's for something completely else.radek (talk) 01:39, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Herman, A. M. (1998). Occupational outlook handbook: 1998-99 edition. Indianapolis: JIST Works. Page 525. Bobanni (talk) 01:43, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
BLP policy states: We must get the article right. Be very firm about the use of high quality references. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, or just questionable—should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion. Bobanni (talk) 01:47, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure what the point of the Herman source is. Can you elaborate? And BLP policy is there to protect living persons from potentially libelous statements - I don't think Siemaszko would mind being called a historian (we could always ask him). You're turning the policy on its head.radek (talk) 01:58, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You can play around in history, but only historians who are trained in analysis and methodology are really historians. This does not stop him from collecting oral histories and also making his own conclussions, and although he most probably is a reputale lawyer, he may not e a reputale historian. Bandurist (talk) 00:00, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No, what we need here is that he is called a historian by reliable sources, no more no less. One can be trained in historical analysis and methodology without getting a piece of paper. And I believe he is considered a reliable historian, even if his degree isn't in history.radek (talk) 01:24, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oral stories of eyewitnesses are as good as any historical source. Tymek (talk) 01:20, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Not for Wikipedia Bobanni (talk) 01:26, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In Poland neither Władysław nor Ewa Siemaszko are considered historians. In Ewa's biography:

Ewa Siemaszko - mgr inż., technolog, z zamiłowania historyk i dokumentalista. Ewa Siemaszko jest absolwentką Wydziału Technologii Rolno-Spożywczej Szkoły Głównej Gospodarstwa Wiejskiego w Warszawie. Zawodowo pracowała w pozaszkolnej oświacie żywieniowej i jako nauczycielka. Autorka wielu opracowań z zakresu żywienia człowieka o charakterze popularyzatorskim.

http://www-kresy.pl/wolyn/autorzy.htm


She indulges in history. i.e. Her hobby is history. Bandurist (talk) 02:03, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No, that's your take on it. Again, the test is whether or not she or he is called a historian by reliable sources.radek (talk) 02:11, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In the link given, which I understand is an authorised page as it also gives her personal email address, she herself does not call herself a historian or represent herself as a historian. Bandurist (talk) 02:14, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Which link are you referring to?radek (talk) 18:54, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

http://www-kresy.pl/wolyn/autorzy.htm Bandurist (talk) 22:13, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure there's anything "official" about this. Again, it just comes down to whether reliable sources refer to either of them as "historians".radek (talk) 22:54, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Siemaszko as a colonist?

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Why is Siemaszko presented as a colonist? Is there any evidence for it? I hope we all know what migrations mean. We do not know the circumstances of his moving to Volhynia, maybe he had a family there, or friend? The Ukrainians in the interbellum also changed their addresses, many of them settled in Krakow, but it takes a lot of imagination to call them colonists. They just moved to Krakow, as Siemaszko moved to Volhynia, one of then-Polish provinces. Tymek (talk) 15:21, 24 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Colonist is the correct "English" term used to describe ethnic Poles that moved to Volyn to build up a Polish presence. Their villages are sometimes called colonies. Colonist were singled out for special treatment by the Soviets. Bobanni (talk) 16:02, 24 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Do you have any evidence that he was an osadnik in Volhynia? If not, we have to write that he just settled there, without further information, which may be untrue. Please solve it first, only then write that he was an osadnik there, OK? Tymek (talk) 17:29, 24 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Bobanni, and do not be a hypocryte. You have accused me of OR, while it is you promoting OR. Either present evidence or stop it. Not all Poles in Volhynia were osadniks, as Polish presence there dates back to the XVI century. We do not know why he settled in Volhynia, reasons may be numerous. Tymek (talk) 17:33, 24 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Poles lived at Volhynia since ever. For sure since XIV century--Paweł5586 (talk) 19:40, 24 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
We do not have to exaggerate here, Pawel. The main thing is that no sources inform us why Siemaszko settled in Volhynia. If this is not confirmed, we cannot call him a colonist. Tymek (talk) 19:46, 24 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This site: #

II RP - surowa macocha - Mohort: "Wydarzyło się 65 lat temu" - Salon24 Władysław Siemaszko, Ewa Siemaszko, "Ludobójstwo dokonane przez nacjonalistów ... Państwo czyli urzędnik, żołnierz, osadnik wojskowy. Jednak w 1943r. ... www.65-lat-temu.salon24.pl/86703,ii-rp-surowa-macocha - 74k - Cached

Has Siemaszko listed as a "osadnik wojskowy." Google tanslates Osadnik as colonist. http://www.poltran.com/odp.php4?q=1&direction=2&word=osadnik 

Translation: OSADNIK

N COLONIST; IMMIGRANT

I therefore am reincluding the term. ҃҃҃҃ --Bandurist (talk) 22:58, 24 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

OK, now I have an excellent source, which is interview with Ewa Siemaszko, daughter of Wladyslaw. She explains it all about Volhynia:

http://www.naszdziennik.pl/index.php?typ=my&dat=20081122&id=my21.txt

This is what she says: "After January Uprising, my great-grandfather bought some land from a Ukrainian peasant, in the county of Wlodzimierz Wolynski. He had orchards there, and was working on mechanization of agriculture. He had eight children, including my gradfather Mieczyslaw, who left for Kielce, and then to Brazil, escaping from Tsarist okhrana (...) He died in Brazil in 1924, and after his death, grandma returned to Volhynia, where her mother had also lived since January Uprising".

I have shortened it a bit, but now it is all clear. Tymek (talk) 04:24, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, this is Google translation of the interview, I do not have time to translate it myself. http://translate.google.com/translate_t# Note what she says, in Google translation it is not perfect, but still understandable: "Everything began with the repression of Tsar after the January Uprising. Siemaszko grandfather also had to hide, and wanders on to the district Wlodzimierz Volhynia, where he bought some land from the Ukrainians and established standard orchards". Tymek (talk) 05:12, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

oral recollections?

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It wasnt oral recollections, but reccolections at KARTA Center, which is published in magazines--Paweł5586 (talk) 19:40, 24 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was no consensus for move. –Juliancolton | Talk 20:00, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Władysław Siemaszko → Wladyslaw Siemaszko —as per Wikipedia:WikiProject Poland/Conventions Bobanni (talk) 06:39, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support.- The Polish slashed l doesn't exist in English, and this is English Wikipedia rather than Polish wikipedia. Whenever any English (or any other non-Polish) speaker searches for Wladislaw they will not use the slashed l, as it does not appear of the English keyboard. I feel that it is only logical to have standard English spelling with standard English letters used for his name.
  • I also feel that the request for the move is not disruptive in any way, and it is quite annoying for one of the editors to lable it this way. Bandurist (talk) 20:45, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. The "c-with-a-tail" also doesn't 'exist' (English is governed by usage rather than some authority so existance is a bit subjective) in English, nor is it on my keyboard, yet, it's still François Mitterrand and not Francois. There's no point to this move.radek (talk) 21:01, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. What is the purpose of this requested move anyway, except for wasting our time? Tymek (talk) 23:41, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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