Talk:Vuno

Vuno -Albanian language

Kallivretakis conducted a on the ground census in 1995 and the category he uses is Orthodox Albanian Christians, not Orthodox Albanian speakers. Nitsiakos cites Kaliivretakis and he also state in his books that people Vuno are hesitant to discuss their identity and discusses issues regarding that. Gregoric only talks about the speech of people in those villages. She makes no discussion of identity and her work should only pertain to speech, not some interpretation of what it might be. Vuno is within the state of Albania, not part of Greece. Over there in that state people who speak Albanian can be called Albanian speakers or whatever. You have to show that Kallivratikis reference of Orthodox Albanian Christians is somehow wrong for there to be a change as Nitisakos cites it as well. Evidence first before making a big call like that !Resnjari (talk) 01:34, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Stop this sophistry. The sources explicitly mention "Albanian speakers". You are somehow managing to twist to mean "ethnic Albanians", which is clearly misconstruing what sources say. Athenean (talk) 02:57, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Really. Please translate p. 51. "ΑΧ Αλβανοί Ορθόδοξοι Χριστιανοί"; p.53. "VUNOS ΒΟΥΝΟΣ 555 ΑΧ". Atheneann, Alvanoi Orthoddoxi Hristianoi means Orthodox Albanian Christians does it not and that is the term used by Kallivretakis. Yes Nitisiakos used "Albanian-speaking Orthodox Christians" and importantly he also used Greek-speaking villages for the Greek villages of Himara. Unless your willing to apply the same standard regarding Greek villages in Himara by calling them "Greek speaking", i suggest you stop this sophistry. This is what Nitsiakos states on page 99.

"According to the latest census in the area, the Greek-speaking population is larger but not necessarily continuous and concentrated. The exclusively Greek-speaking villages, apart from Himarë, are Queparo Siperme, Dhërmi and Palasë. The rest are inhabited by Albanian-speaking Orthodox Christians (Kallivretakis 1995:25-58)." Resnjari (talk) 23:40, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

What part of "Albanian-speaking do you not understand? Stop this insanity, please. Athenean (talk) 23:48, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

What part of "Αλβανοί Ορθόδοξοι Χριστιανοί" don't you understand.Resnjari (talk) 00:02, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

The section has serious structural issues: it begins with a straight declaration that it's an Albanian inhabited village, then follows information about language and finally it explains that the ethnic identity of the villagers might not be that clear: they use alternative terms, self declare as Northern Epirotes, and in fact do not declare themselves either as Albanians or Greeks etc, etc. Thus, this paragraph should be adjusted accordingly.Alexikoua (talk) 08:54, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

It is a Albanian inhabited village, i am going by what peer reviewed Kallivretakis (also cited by Nitsiakos) states when he conducted fieldwork there and found the people identifying as such. Numerous changes due to economic circumstances and people going to Greece have changed in alter years some of those views, but not of all. Nonetheless. I have an issue with part of the sentence you have altered. You have written "instead of simply declaring themselves as Greeks,". Nitisiakos writes these people use the term Northern Epirote regarding identity because they "they know it means “Greek” to the Greeks. Nitsiakos was pointing out that they use that term when around Greek people. Then he says they do that while avoiding discussing their true identity. Which means that as Nitsiakos states they don't want to fall into "the trap of denying the true national identity". Otherwise they would outright say they are Greek to Nitiaskos since he is a Greek. Why the ambiguity unless they have a different view and term in mind. The sentence needs to be altered as it clearly states they use the term Northern Epirote regarding when in the presence of Greeks. And on a side note, as you have encountered for example the user Burridheut, not all Vuniots feel Greek. To the contrary and there are many other who also feel differently. For example Albania's current government is headed by two Vuniots Edi Rama (mother was a Vuniot, father from Orthodox Albanian Korca village of Dardha) and Koco Kokodhima (Vuniot and self made millionaire and media proprietor). Both where involved in ordering the knockdown of a Orthodox church partial rebuilt in Greek speaking Dhermi for various controversial illegal build reasons. So not all Vuniots can be counted as being or wanting to be in the Greek camp. Anyway this bit "instead of simply declaring themselves as Greeks," either gets altered and is in line with Nitsiakos or is scraped altogether. Resnjari (talk) 00:12, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

It appears that Nitsiakos disagrees with you in fact with your claim that Numerous changes due to economic circumstances and people going to Greece have changed.... Nitsiakos does't mention that the pro-Greek feeling is a recent post-1991 phenomenon. He mentions that the inhabitants of the Albanian speaking villages in Himara region struggled for Greek education in the 30s, when it was prohibited by state policies.Alexikoua (talk) 09:17, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

He does state the issue about people in Orthodox Albanian speaking villages wanting Greek education. But the current day issues relating to identity on page 466 he specifically refers to a post communist setting. As for " Nitsiakos doesn't mention that the pro-Greek feeling is a recent post-1991 phenomenon." is problematic to say the least. On page 466, he relates the situation of migration to Greece which occurred in a post communist setting, not prior or that referring to the 1930s. For example he describes the elderly who were not getting a "Greek pension" in the 1930s, but in recent times. Same with young Vuniots and their sojourn to Greece for work. You are conflating two time periods into one. The bit that i said was a issue in in reference to a post communist setting.Resnjari (talk) 14:30, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

I fully agree that not all people in this settlement share the very same national ideology. What's exactly your objection in the specific part (instead of simply declaring themselves as Greeks)?Alexikoua (talk) 12:52, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Because Nitisakos does not say write such a thing, that why. He states importantly that when "They never define themselves directly as Greek and use the terms “Northern Epirote” or “Orthodox” instead. The term “Northern Epirote” is particularly convenient in its ambiguity, but they prefer it because they know it means “Greek” to the Greeks. This way they both appear honest and achieve their goal without falling into the trap of denying the true national identity."

See the way it written at the moment in the article, the reader may infer that Vuniots just use other terms like Northern Epirote which mean Greek in a generalised sense, for example the sentence "instead of simply declaring themselves as Greeks". Whereas Nitsiakos states that they use those terms because they know it means Greek to Greeks, yet they are careful and seem to have a another identity or "true national identity" as he terms it, in mind which he does not elaborate upon. Changes need to done for the section to reflect Nitsiakos (My proposal below):

In general, villagers are both careful and ambiguous when mentioning their identity. Vuno residents have referred to themselves as Orthodox or Northern Epiriotes, as these terms connote being Greek to Greeks without directly defining themselves as Greeks. In doing so Vuno villagers avoid discussion of their true identity.

Resnjari (talk) 14:30, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Northern Epirote might mean Greek in a generalised sense & Nitsiakos says they self-identify with the last term but not with the first & that's what the text says. I see nowhere in Nitsiakos about their self identification as Albanians if you mean that this is their true national identity. Interesting enough the fact that they launched counter-attacks agianst the forces of the Principality of Albania in April 1914 isn't a sign of Albanian patriotic activity. To sum up the problematic issues in your version were 1. the mix up of lanuage and ethnicity and 2. the friendly-feelings towards Greece supposed to be a product of modern financial support from Greece. Fortunately both have been fixed right now. However, some further minor rewording may be ok.Alexikoua (talk) 14:59, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

"I see nowhere in Nitsiakos about their self identification as Albanians if you mean that this is their true national identity". I actually didn't nor did Nitisakos. He too leaves that as ambiguous. My point is to have the passage reflect the source very closely as part of it does not at the moment.

"Northern Epirote might mean Greek in a generalised sense & Nitsiakos says they self-identify with the last term but not with the first & that's what the text says." No it does not. The text infers something different. It stands at the moment as "instead of simply declaring themselves as Greeks" while Nitisakos explicitly states "They never define themselves directly as Greek and use the terms “Northern Epirote” or “Orthodox” instead. The term “Northern Epirote” is particularly convenient in its ambiguity, but they prefer it because they know it means “Greek” to the Greeks." Explain how you get from that last bit to mean "instead of simply declaring themselves as Greeks" as it reads now ? Nitisakos states that their choice of Northern Epirot is done because it means Greek to the Greeks. Nonetheless they never say outright they are Greek in front of Greeks. He also explicitly states that that have other views regarding what they consider their true identity but they don't share it with him, a Greek ! My point is the proposals above i have placed are to have the part of the article inline with Nitsiakos due to the sensitivity of the topic as well.

"Interesting enough the fact that they launched counter-attacks against the forces of the Principality of Albania in April 1914 isn't a sign of Albanian patriotic activity." What does that have to do with page 466 which discusses a post communist setting ? Agian you are conflating time periods. The bit i am referring to pertains to a post communist era which the whole identity and language section is about. Stuff that you refer too are within the history section of the article. Anyway, if you want to talk about the interwar period or before, there were prominent Vuniots who choose their mother tongue of Albanian and ethnoym Shqiptar over religion and Greek identity steaming from church and schools such as Sprio Jorgo Koleka and other Orthodox Albanian speakers of the area. Not all were pro Greek.

"To sum up the problematic issues in your version were 1. the mix up of language and ethnicity and 2. the friendly-feelings towards Greece supposed to be a product of modern financial support from Greece. Fortunately both have been fixed right now." Not really, they have stayed the same with some stylistic change by you. I am not objecting to those parts as my comments show and also have nothing to do with those bits. Please address the issue about the part of the sentence that i have raised which needs to be reworked as it is a bit problematic at the moment. I have suggested proposals regarding that bit by the way.Resnjari (talk) 15:34, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

If you believe that the pro-Greek feeling is still not well represented in the article, I can add additional info on that. About the mix up of language and ethnicity, although the initial mess is in generally fixed, I can't see how this can be further improved. Alexikoua (talk) 19:07, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

I can also add in post communist academic Albanian sources which point to a contrary view regarding not all Vuniots aspiring to a Greek identity if you feel that is what is also needed as well. Anyway regarding the post identity and language section which deals with a post communist setting now it is ok.Resnjari (talk) 12:21, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Vuno's language is "i like greece"?!

@Khirurg you can't understand how much i like it but unfortunately it doesnt belong to the "Identity and Language" if the people of an albanian village "Like" Greece. As they also love USA, Japan, South Africa, and probably even Sealand. So stop with adding unrelated information just for the sake of adding as much "Greek" and "Greece" as you can. RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 14:33, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

If you can find a source that states that hey also love USA, Japan, South Africa, and probably even Sealand, you can add that in. In the meantime I strongly advise not to remove sourced information for the sole reason that you don't like it. Khirurg (talk) 14:55, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

No matter what the population likes there is no reason or importance to add personal preferences of foreign countries to the language and identity sector. RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 15:02, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Do you have any policy-based arguments for keeping out well-sourced information, or is it all just versions of "I don't like it"? Khirurg (talk) 15:17, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

It is a clear case of WP:Coatrack. To prove a point. So im giving you a friendly suggestion to self revert otherwise once again we would both be obliged to proceed otherwise. RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 15:35, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

WP:COATRACK? Not even close. It's literally just one sentence. If you want we can seek a third opinion. Khirurg (talk) 16:21, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

The number or size doesnt matter. Even if it mattered is the longest sentence in a 5 sentence sector. Still it doesnt change the face that it has absolutely NO RELEVANCE to the language or identity of the people of Vuno. Sure we can ask for a third opinion. RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 16:24, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Did you even read WP:COATRACK? Material that is supported by a reliable, published source whose topic is directly related to the topic of the article, is not using the article as a coatrack. The sentiments of the inhabitants of the village are of course directly relevant to the village. That it is of NO IMPORTANCE is nothing more than your opinion, in other words, WP:JDL. Khirurg (talk) 17:52, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Response to third opinion request:

The content in question is from a reliable source and, therefore, potentially meets the guidelines for Wikipedia. I say potentially because not everything in a source is worthy of inclusion as some sources are too specialized or too detailed for an encyclopedic entry. In this case, I do agree that a portion of the text is not appropriately placed within the article. Nitsiakos's findings about "their strong Orthodox Christian identity" are perfect for the section on Identity and Language. However, I would not include "they have friendly feelings towards Greece, and their pro-Greek attitude may also be related to provision of employment opportunities in Greece, while the elderly are recipients of Greek pensions as Hellenes" in this section. Rather, I would place this information at the end of the History section, reworked into something like this: Recently (dates would be useful, such as since the 1980s, if those exist), Vuno has renewed its relationship with Greece with many younger residents seeking employment there. In addition, the elderly of Vuno are eligible to receive Greek pensions as Hellenes. According to the fieldwork anthropologist V. Nitsiakos these interactions have resulted in a pro-Greek attitude in Vuno. It does not need to be exactly that, but my point is to pull the important details out of the source, rather than applying it in a way that comes across as trivial. Hope this helps. Rublamb (talk) 19:19, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Agree, Thank you! @Khirurg do you agree as well? RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 19:31, 3 October 2023 (UTC)