Talk:Visoreds

Ichigo's "Half and Half Status"

The page says Ichigo became a shinigami and hollow at the same time, however he was a Shinigami long before he was a hollow (first chapter of the manga/episode of the anime). Even though those were "borrowed" powers, the zanpakuto he received was genuine and most likely (not sure if this has been mentioned/discussed or not) a sealed form of Zangetsu (as shown when he releases it during his training with Urahara). So I'm fixing the part that mentions him being half and half, as it's sort of obvious that he is a Vizard.

Thanks for discussing the edit before making it, but I have reverted it. It is not entirely clear that Ichigo is a vizard, and he did not awaken hollow powers while being a shinigami like the other vizard supposedly have. The clarification is not harmful to the article in any case. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 11:01, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

We actually have no information whatsoever about how the vizard other than Ichigo gained their powers. So it will basically be speculation no matter what we write about the issue. --tjstrf 18:50, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Recently, Kensei was shown becoming a hybrid and attacking his allies like Ichigo had when training with the Vizard in a flashback.--Oreichalcos (talk) 15:45, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

In fact, this whole statement is incorrect. Ichigo was running on borrowed power andlost it. He then became a hollow n the pit, and forced it down by becoming a shinigami. If he had become a shinigami first, he would never have gained hollow powers in the first place. For those of you who do not remember this part of training so well, here's what happened: Ichigo's chain of fate was cut, and Urahara threw him in a pit that increased the speed on encroachment. Ichigo had three days to become a Shinigami (therefore not having a chain of fate) or the chain would encroach fully, turning him into a hollow. He missed the deadline and turned into a hollow. Luckily, however, as Urahara and company prepared to kill Ichigo, he forced down the hollow and became a shinigami. So through this logic, Ichigo is actually an arrancar. I suggest, therefore, that you change the emphasis of the article, which is that arrancar are hollows first and vizard are shinigami first. Ichigo is clearly a vizard. I think arrancar depends on who you side with. iriseyes ~

If Ichigo had been an arrancar he would permanently have a broken mask on his face as well as his zanpaktou would release his sealed hollow powers. As Ichigo instead has all of the characteristics of a Vizard he is a Vizard. -- freedomnow6 —Preceding comment was added at 13:56, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I say Ichigo is indeed a Vizard, he had semi-dormant shinigami powers all of his life due to being the son of a shinigami. Meeting with rukia/taking rukia's powers just gave him the ability to use a zanpakto and when he lost rukia's powers and awakened his own he got to keep his zanpakto the same exact zanpakto. He learned to control his hollow side the same as any Vizard and a mask forms over his head the same as any vizard --Bushido Brown 02:46, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

(WARNING: PERSONAL OPINION AHEAD! This is merely an attempt at explaining on of Bleach's deeper plot points to one of the numerous confused readers I hear ask about this constantly, and while I think it's correct, it's based on connecting the dots, not explicit series canon.)

Plotwise, the defining characteristic of an arrancar vs. a vizard is apparant in their names and the state of their masks: Arrancar rip their masks off, Vizard wear theirs when they choose. Symbolically, do you remember what the mask of a hollow represents? It's the guard that keeps their raw instinct protected from civilization, and judging by what happened to Orihime's brother who partially regained his reason upon having his mask broken, it's what keeps their instinct in control. Arrancar break their masks apart, melding their reason and their instinct, and similarly destroy the wall between their shinigami and hollow powers. When an arrancar breaks their mask, their killer instinct absorbs their reason, which is why they all act somewhat insane.

In a vizard, the two parts of their personalities and powers are seperate, intact, and fighting within them. This is why they have both fully shinigami, fully hollow, and masked forms. If you recall Ichigo's battle with his inner hollow, his moment of victory was when he met "Zaraki" within him, and grasped the importance of, and how to use, raw fighting instinct. A masked vizard is initially one in which the hollow and shinigami sides are fighting for dominance. However, when a vizard puts on their mask voluntarily after subduing their hollow, they are using raw instinct as a tool, but maintain control over it, and do not lose their reason.

So, in conclusion, Vizard are both hollow and shinigami, seperately, and their masked form is a shinigami's reason tapping into a hollow's killer instinct. Arrancar are both hollow and shinigami, but together in a mix. And I just did a really lousy job of explaining my point but hopefully someone will get it. --tjstrf 03:47, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I think there's another point to consider that's been overlooked- the details on Ichigo's zanpakutou while he's still going on his power "borrowed" from Rukia. Specifically, there are two things to observe- first, the size of the zanpakutou, clearly that is being affected by Ichigo's own innate power and not Rukia's, and secondly, the design of the tsuba on the sword, which is, in fact, pretty unmistakably Sode no Shirayuki's tsuba. Now from here I reason thusly- the zanpakutou is obviously on the surface Rukia's, as the tsuba shows, however beneath the apparent surface, it's Ichigo's. As his inner hollow tells him in chapter 218, both he and Zangetsu are Ichigo's power, meaning that if the size of his zanpakutou is a manifestation of Ichigo's power, the zanpakutou is Ichigo's Zangetsu. So therefore, put together, Ichigo's zanpakutou when he's running on borrowed power is, as a friend of mine once put it, "Zangetsu hiding in Sode no Shirayuki". He has his own zanpakutou from the start, just initially only through the means of borrowed power. --ACDragonMaster 08:50, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Anonymous Ideas: if you remember when Ichigo turned into a hollow during his training, he tore off his hollow mask, and appeared to be shimigami, but the arranchar also had to tear off their hollow mask to attain their powers, so do you think Ichigo might be somehow a mix of both vaizard and arranchar? just an idea.

Ichigo is... Unique. While his powers are that of a vizard, how he got them is more like an arrancar (At least as I see it). However, if you must catagorize him, it would be in the vizard column. The reason for this is that Ichigo has the soul equivalent to Multiple-personalities. Hollow Ichigo is a seperate entity with in "normal" shinigami Ichigo. If you wanted to timeline it out, Ichigo starts as a normal human soul with the capability of becoming a Shinigami, which he does, by absorbing Rukia's powers. After those are removed, he goes back to being a normal soul, still with his previous dormant powers. During the attempt to find his own powers, Ichigo starts the process of becoming a hollow thus, forming Hollow Ichigo as an entity. Since he managed to hold his "normal" shinigami self together, he became, in effect, a vizard. At least, if all the vizard are like Ichigo in the respect that they have their hollow self embeded deep within them. As probable as that is, we can't say for sure yet, since we don't have any solid evidence. Ichigo isn't really anything like the arrancar, since his hollow is a different entity. In the end, if Ichigo wants to get even more possible power, he'll have to bridge the gap between vizard and arrancar (Much like he bridged the gap between hollow and shinigami), but that's probably a ways down the road. I'm going to end my personal thoughts on all this now, because I'm starting to loose the personal path of reason I was travelling on. SaviorEX 17:19, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I won't say much, so here goes. Arrancar have holes (like hollows). Vizards do not have holes (like shinigami). Ichigo does not have a hole, therefore the answer is obvious. Ichigo is not an arrancar, plain and simple, cut and dry. Silvie rob 05:42, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

To add to that, he has two releases of his zanpakuto, a shikai, and a bankai. In his bankai, do you see him becoming a hollow-like creature? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.250.231.28 (talk) 18:04, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

In reply to the previous comment the first time we see Ichigo gain bankai, he first fights against bakayua, and then becomes a HOLLOW like creature like the arrancar his power was released when he released his sword. He Is more than vizard and more than a arrancar. Ichigo Is his vizard form, for his robes bear the black of shinigami. When you see Oichigo(hollow within) he wears white robes just as the arrancar. ICHIGO IS A MIXTURE OF BOTH —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.20.204.18 (talk) 04:47, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Bullshit, that's completely unrelated and you know it. StardustDragon 07:45, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

To the comments above I would assume that all of the Vizard have similar characteristics as the ones you describe Ichigo to have, I assume this because they themselves said that they went through the same process of defeating their hollow self. Concerning the Bakayua battle, while it is true he does exhibit hollow like characteristics this is because he had yet to control his hollow as described above. His hollow is not released when he releases his powers/bankai; his hollow is released when he is tired out and on the verge of loosing the battle. His inner hollow wears white robes because everything in Ichigo's mind is upside down remember. This was stated when he first went into his own mind and the buildings were right side up and but oddly the wrong way (if that makes sense)though the difference in arrancar and shinigami robes is evident and is meant to serve a purpose I dont think this is it. Aside; I while the acquisition of his hollow powers were odd concerning normal shinigami I wouldnt say it was similar to an arrancars. There is most likely no other way for a Vizard to be created, unless it is very similar. An arrancar if I remember is created by several stages of hollow on hollow assimilation. An arrancar is basically the toughest highest stage on the ladder. He is a Vizard and doesnt show any other symptoms of him not being so in combat, except that he cant or most likely at least doesnt know how to use Cero- SrocOG —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.44.203.3 (talk) 03:39, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I really don't think he "tore off" the mask at all, the mask was in the process of forming, he beat his hollow and it was just left on his face, like residue, rather than any actual part of him. It was more like a Visored mask that he can take on and off. Arrancar start as hollows, Visored start as shinigami, even if Ichigo wasn't a full shinigami at that point he still had those powers within him. His power is far closer to visored than any arrancar, he has no hole, no remnants of a mask. I just don't think he's even remotely like an arrancar. (also take into account that Urahara made the Visored and since we don't know the exact process he used to do it, maybe this was the process he used, or something similar? I certainly wouldn't put it past him to do it without saying anything.) 142.167.48.54 (talk) 19:42, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Note should be paid to the fact that until he gained the hollow mask and zangetsu from training with Urahara he didn't really have a zanpakto per se. As Urahara said "it has a zanpakto shape and form, but none of the power." Which suggests that he would need Urahara's training if he ever wanted a released zanpakto at all.--74.131.128.220 (talk) 15:47, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Why does Vaizād = Vizard?

Do we have an official source that romanizes vaizād (ヴァイザード) as "Vizard"? As it is, people will not be able to pronounce it correctly at first glance. Why did the vai get changed to vi? –Gunslinger47 13:03, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Just like no one tried to say Baunto, but used Bount, Bound, Bounto, Bountou, and variations, instead. It's natural for an English reader to read stuff in English. If we get an official transliteration we will of course use it. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 22:50, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, Ba'unt and Bount are much more similar than Vizard (as Wizard) and Vaizard (as Visored). –Gunslinger47 01:41, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

The point is that an English pronunciation is assumed instead of a Japanese, as in Bount (which is pronounced like Baunto in Japanese would be, not Bōnto). Same with Vizard, which is pronounced in English as Vaizādo in Japanese would be. Vaizard, similar to the Dattebayo spelling Bounto, is wrong, because it presumes English pronounciation at the start of the word (ou = au, not ō), and Japanese in the end (short o instead of the long o that would be used in English). Same with Vaizard, which presumes Japanese pronounciation at the start (ai = ai, not ey), and English at the end (the letter combination rd doesn't even exist in Japanese). Therefore either a complete English variant should be used (Vizard or Visored), or a complete Japanese variant (V(B)aizādo). The word vizard meaning a mask in old English is also a good indication that Vizard is correct. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 14:46, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Right, hence we get to the reason for my asking. Some people think it should be Visored. Why's that wrong? –Gunslinger47 15:26, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't think there is a good argument against Visored, but there also isn't a good argument for. Vizard also means mask so it's not like it's a random word vs. the more known word visor. In other words, there is simply no good reason to switch, even though both are valid IMO. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 16:04, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I would think that it's "Vizard" because [vizard] means "a mask or visor" in English, and Japanese, like all living languages, borrow words from other languages.

You know the different anime translations, since now they have started the arrancar arc, show the name to be viazard. And they pronounce it vi-zard. So if the original, not translated anime is calling it that way then should that be the official way of saying it? Bearing in mind that they call Chad Chado but we know its Chad.--Noman953 5:36, 11 Feburary 2007

I don't know. I keep hearing people suggest that it's supposed to be "Visored" and I wish I had a good reason to tell that they're wrong. –Gunslinger47 11:30, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

People don't pronounce wizard "whyzard", so I don't think this is the right spelling. --Nate3000 05:45, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

If I might try to summarize the "vizard" vs "visored" vs "vaizard" with reasons going for and against both...

"Vizard"

On the minus side, the pronunciation of the word "vizard" does not correlate with the katakana adaptation here. Specifically, the pronunciation of the first vowel should be identical to that of the word "wizard" (consult a dictionary of in doubt), and as such typical katakana-adaptation convention would dictate an output of ヴィザード "vizaado" (although actual pronunciation of a voiced bilabial fricative is somewhat uncommon) or ビザード "bizaado" (cf. wizard > ウィザード "wizaado").

On the plus side, it is a bone fide English word, albeit archaic. The meaning also fits well with the context. It being an archaic word does cast some doubt on to the probability that Kubo found and chose to use the word, although it's still not outside the realm of possibility.

"Visored"

On the minus side, the use of "visored" as a verb or, more likely in this case, an adjective is somewhat uncommon in English.

On the plus side, while perhaps uncommon as an adjective, it is still far from unattested and is still used in modern-day English. Next, the word "visor" is used as a loanword in Japanese currently and fairly commonly, having been adapted as バイザー "baizaa". In terms of probability, it seems much more likely that this is were Kubo picked up the word, as opposed to somehow coming across the archaic "vizard". Also, semantically speaking, the assumed meaning of "visored", that is "to be covered with a visor", is not particularly in anyway at odds with the context. Lastly, the choice of katakana adaptation in this case correlates perfectly with the expected output of "visored", that being either ヴァイザード "vaizaado" or バイザード "baizaado".

"Vaizard"

On the minus side, it isn't an English word (or a word of any other language, best I can tell, though correct me if I'm wrong).

On the plus side... to be frank, I don't see any pluses supporting that this is what Kubo intended, unless it was just intended to be a random foreign-esque word chosen purely for its sound and not based on any actual word. But honestly, I can only see this as being the result of people without much imagination and/or experience with Japanese attempting a reverse adaptation of a word written in katakana.

Personally I'd have to say that "visored" seems like a significantly more likely candidate than either of the others, although an official source of some kind would certainly be preferred in this case. Not that it should dictate what term is used in this article in the end, but conducting google searches using one of the three terms with "bleach" and "shinigami" added to focus the results seems to indicate that "vizard" is most commonly used on the net, followed by "vaizard", and then "visored" a very distant third. As much as I'd like to suggest we change the title of the page to "visored", it is arguably prudent to submit to the dominate fanbase convention until something more official surfaces.67.189.77.106 21:37, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm well aware this discussion is outdated now, but would like to add, in case it might be of any use in the future, that whilst the archaic word 'vizard' means mask, the word 'visor' does not, and would usually mean either a kind of headband-with-a-cap such as golfers are prone to wear, or some elaborate sunglasses (funnily enough not unlike the kind that Renji is often seen with!). Rhiannoneva (talk) 19:26, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

OK gotta apologise first, not knowing a thing about Wiki editing. But despite disliking the official translation I do buy the Official manga! (nothing beats the feel of a Manga in your hand) They spell it Vizard. I'm not gunna scan and upload it, but i'm sure you can find it somewhere on the net. I Doubt they'll change it in the anime (has the anime caught up yet?) Not-a-user: Tort 10:35am, 2 August 2008 (GMT)

No, the most recent one uses Visored. StardustDragon 14:04, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

See also the September 2008 issue of Shonen Jump - one of the chapter titles uses Visored. —Dinoguy1000 16:25, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

My God they have.... and people wonder why I hate the official translation so much, Ok I'll keep my trap shut from now on coz I know Wiki is going by official translation. Not-a-user: Tort 17:43 3 August 2008 (GMT) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.20.141.52 (talk)

The most common translation is vizard according to the episode and manga chapters on bleachportal.net who follows the official dattebayo site ( the publisher in japan) and can speak the language fairly well.bicentenialman97 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.95.14.212 (talk) 23:13, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Dattebayo is just a random fansubbing group. They have nothing to do with Bleach. ~SnapperTo 00:06, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

why is his hollow inside more human and self aware then any other hollow encountered thus far —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.131.116.200 (talk) 21:56, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Rejection

"The vizard are also rejected by hollows, due to their former status as Soul Reapers" nothing like this is ever stated in the manga or suggested seeing as a large faction of hollows have shinigami's as their leaders I would have to call that ;ine categorily false so i'm gonna remove it —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.128.213.155 (talk) 10:23, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

The fact that multiple Espada and Hollow-aligned characters attack and engage the Vizard in combat multiple times isn't enough for you? StardustDragon 04:52, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Multiple times? You mean "once" right as in after Shinji attacked GJ, GJ went on the offensive against him. Other than that we have not seen any Hollows fight with the vizard gang. Ichigo being attacked obviously doesn't count as he was being attacked before anyone even knew he had hollow powers and even if he were never a shinigami and he were 100% hollow he would have been attacked for defending Karakura town and for invading Las Noches to take back orihime. 72.74.235.93 (talk) 16:56, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Wait, so Shinji, the de facto leader, attacked one of the Espada? Checkmate. StardustDragon 14:30, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Shinji states that he only attacked Grimmjow because one of his comrades was in danger. I agree that there is no evidence of this. :) (74.237.14.196 (talk) 11:30, 9 August 2008 (UTC))

Old discussion, read the new chapters. And if Ichigo is one of his comrades, that means that Shinji would logically attack ANYONE that attacked Ichigo, meaning ALL the arrancar. Suigetsu 04:24, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

The only time I recall Shinji attacking anyone, was when Rukia almost gor killed by Grimmjow and Shinji helped her out. Am I wrong? ~ Hyakurei (talk) 14:57, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that's what we've established. However, Shinji did this because grimmjow attacked ichigo, his "comrade." If he attacks people based on who attacks his comrades, it's safe to assume he'll be, or wouldn't have objections to, fighting a lot of arrancar. Suigetsu 18:07, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Vizard is not Visored

I've spoken w/ many and they say vizard is the correct spelling. They think Visored is an outrage and should be corrected asap.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Missanime (talk • contribs) 08:26, August 3, 2008 (UTC)

Good for your friends. Unfortunately, they're not a qualified source, and Shonen Jump is. StardustDragon 17:11, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Couldn't you at least wait for more than one edition to use the wrong spelling before you plaster it all over the article? This article renaming is offensively poor English. Kyz (talk) 22:55, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

No, it's the right spelling, they've used it for multiple chapters, get over it. StardustDragon 05:23, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I've yet to actually see it used as Visored, personally if your going to name it that you should email Kubo and actually find out for sure. Pretty sure HE has named it Vizard/Vaizard not some pathetic Visored. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Revan46 (talk • contribs) 18:48, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Like we said, Viz decided on Visored. And it's more correct than "vizard", which is pronounced "vizzerd" and not "visored" as it should be.—Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 19:05, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

What Uru said. Bitch and moan all you want, it doesn't change the fact that Kubo actually did name it Visored, not "some pathetic V(a)izard," nyoro. StardustDragon 19:24, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I can't believe I forgot to mention this previously, but not only does one of the chapter titles use Visored, but the current story arc as named in Shonen Jump does as well. And waiting for more editions to come out will likely only support the changed usage. —Dinoguy1000 20:32, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok, don't know if anybody noticed, on the character page it's vizard again, and on this article it's visored?!!? HUH? ~ Hyakurei (talk) 19:16, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok, never mind, I'm reverting the edit. It is visored... Hyakurei (talk) 19:22, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

WP:VANDALISM StardustDragon 03:47, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Shonen Jump has used "Vizard" in last month's issue. Maybe this means it's not entirely wrong? (Skunkboy74 (talk) 16:32, 11 August 2008 (UTC))

Where? I don't remember seeing it... Do you have a page number? —Dinoguy1000 17:22, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Except in this month's issue they used Visored. Suigetsu 04:37, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that they DID use vizard. I don't think that just because they didn't use it in one issue that it's entirely wrong. I don't have the exact page number at the moment, but I'll get it as soon as possible. I do know it was at the back in the "Next Month's Issue" section. (Skunkboy74 (talk) 18:34, 12 August 2008 (UTC))

The article already states that Viz formerly translated it as "Vizard" (in fact, it's in the lead). However, they decided to change it to "Visored" for some reason, and therefore, "Visored" is currently the official English term. —Dinoguy1000 19:01, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. It doesn't matter what you think they will use. THe latest, most recent issue uses Visored and that's all that matters. Quit stalling for time and accept that we're going to use this horrible translation. Suigetsu 20:19, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not saying what I think they will use. They DID use it. You can't say that just because one issue didn't use it that it's wrong. (Skunkboy74 (talk) 19:35, 13 August 2008 (UTC))

We're not saying that it's wrong, only that it's not current. As has been pointed out at least twice above, the current spelling is "Visored", the former spelling is noted in the lead, and furthermore, any attempt at interpretation, guessing, etc. would violate WP:CRYSTAL, WP:NOR, and so on. —Dinoguy1000 16:28, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

So are we to assume that everything that Viz dictates is the correct term now? I didn't know they had that power over the Japanese language! I guess I'll have to remember that shinigami no longer means death god, but Soul Reaper and that Hollows shoop death beams or something instead of ceros! --96.230.27.53 (talk) 23:32, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Just a reminder, this is English Wikipedia, not Japan's. All words and phrases that could be translated to English will be translated to English. Deal with it.. or go debate at the naming convention page. -- Axxand SPEAK ACT 00:07, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

It has been ONE ISSUE. They used it in last month's issue, didn't use it in this month's issue. The point is that the Shonen Jump English Manga used the word Vizard. That means it's not entirely wrong. (Skunkboy74 (talk) 05:14, 15 August 2008 (UTC))

And, once again, the issue is not that it is or is not wrong, but that it's not current. Also, you're starting to confuse me: which term are you referring to with which issue, and what specific issues are you talking about? August:Vizard/September:Visored? As to the anon IP above, I never said that it's correct Because Viz Said So (I never even used the word "correct"). This is hardly the first time a translation choice has been controversial amongst hardcore fans (casual readers, if they notice at all, will likely just go "huh, so they changed it" and move on with their lives), and in all such situations, WP:MOS-AM dictates to use the "official English term", not what all the fanboys want. If Viz later decides to switch back to "Vizard" (or go with some third translation), this article will be moved again and usage updated accordingly, likely in the face of even more protests. But until then, and unless you actually have something of value to contribute to the article, either shut up or go complain on a fan forum. —Dinoguy1000 17:26, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

The point is that it used it. They also used "Soul Slayer" and "Die" as Senbonzakura's release command. Those are not in Wikipedia because they were later corrected. Suigetsu 22:31, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for what might sound like a noob question (as this situation hasn't really come up before), but does Wikipedia really have to follow the "official translations" if we know (or are pretty sure) they're wrong? Please don't take offense; this is a real question. For example, in the English DVD credits for Berserk, the translators proffered almost completely erroneous names for the God Hand, something like "Suran," "Yubikku," etc. However, knowing the correct spellings, the Wiki keeps them. Wikipedia is conceived of as a source of information, so shouldn't we try to weed out incorrect, if "official," forms? Viz, especially, keeps playing the revision game, it seems, whilst maintaining wholly-fabricated terms like "Doom Blast" to translate "Hollow Flash/Cero." Once again, this has never come up for me. I'd appreciate any guidance you can give me to better understand these situations.Adam Restling (talk) 09:04, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Having never read or seen Berserk, I can't say anything for the translation choices in its article. However, it seems likely that the terms used on its article would be ones that appear in the manga, as it's the primary work. You should also keep in mind that Berserk is a Start-class article, which means it probably doesn't closely follow guidelines and policy. Especially with a topic like anime and manga, this makes it very likely that the terms used are fanslations rather than official translations. This can also extend to series that do recieve a lot of project focus, like the Bleach related articles, since it comes down to someone noticing the terms, double-checking them, and correcting them as necessary. It is not our place to decide that a given official translation is incorrect, since translation companies change terms for a variety of reasons and any attempt to explain on our part constitutes original research. If it can be properly sourced and the subject is of sufficient notability, the translation guffah can be noted, but we still use the official English translation. —Dinoguy1000 16:34, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

There's a difference between translating actual terms and translating phonetics. Suigetsu 02:06, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

True, but seldom noteworthy. —Dinoguy1000 20:24, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Not really, but I can't figure out how to put what I'm getting at into words. Suigetsu 01:03, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

By the way, I just picked up September's English SJ. Guess what? It uses Visored. Eat it, whiny fanboy shits. Suigetsu 01:04, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

October's does as well (or is that the one you meant to say?). —Dinoguy1000 17:31, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Erm, yeah, October. My bad. 70.138.167.143 (talk) 22:18, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

A little rude, eh? No need to get insulting. Anyway, nice to know. I guess they just forgot to put "visored" instead of "vizard". You'd think they would proofread that stuff. --Skunkboy74 (talk) 02:00, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Obnoxious faggot. Your "vast knowledge" of Shonen Jump does not make you superior in any way, dickweed. Maybe if you explained it to them nicely, they might have agreed with you.

I got a question, how is the name direction of this article "Vizard" over "Visoreds" any diferent from such articles like "Roronoa Zoro" and his name being spelled in the official english translation as "Zolo" yet in all articles that refer to him in wikipedia it appears as Zoro.205.110.157.250 (talk) 11:04, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

You're calling me an obnoxious faggot, yet scolding me for acting superior? Way to go. I admit I was a bit testy in this argument, but it's only due to the fact that this has been going on for a long time now. I'm sorta tired of arguing about shit like this, and wish people would read WP:UE for a change. Suigetsu 18:09, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Standards tend to be different across groups of series articles. The One Piece editors detest all English versions of the series, and so through their own consensus have decided on the original "Zoro". The Bleach editors are slowly gaining a preference for English equivalents, and so "visored" is used. Of the two, only the Bleach editors are supported by common Wikipedia practices. ~SnapperTo 23:04, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the objection to the spelling. In truth, the term "Visored" seems to reek of poor translation. I say this not only because the phonetics of "Visored" don't seem to match the pronunciation in official media, but also because the previously accepted term, "Vizard" does have precident as an English term, one that fits the characters in question far too well to be dismissed as simply coincidence. The term vizard dates back to 16th century England as a term for a mask. A more famous example of its use would be in Macbeth Act III, Scene II where Macbeth says that he and his wife must (and I quote) "make our faces vizards to our hearts". 141.166.234.196 (talk) 22:58, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Good for you. WP:UE trumps your opinion, though. I agree with Snapper's sentiment; I'm growing to like the English versions, although I used to prefer Japanese release phrases over the English translations. And with all this arguing, I have to admit I'm starting to like "Visored" as well. /cringe Suigetsu 18:05, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

By the way, if you want to talk about phonetics, "Visored" is better than "Vizard" in every way. We don't pronounce English "wizard" as "whyzard". We do pronounce English "visor" as "vyz(insert vowel)r." Suigetsu 18:10, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Ahem... Let's see here... Aha! In book 21, page 142, Chapter 185 'Be My Family or Not', the term they use is Vizard, not this odd 'Visored' word that is used by the Wikipedia article. This book is published by VIZ, so therefore, the arguement saying that 'Visored' is the correct term because it's used by VIZ is null and void. I hope this settles any confusion, and if you believe I am wrong, please, crack open and Bleach 21, flip to the page mentioned above, and see for yourself. Oh, and as for phonetics, Suigetsu-sama, if every artical was phonetical, would 'Ulquiorra Schiffer' be spelled Urukeyorra Shhiffada? That's how it is pronounced in his voice recording by the Japanese actor. I believe, in internet terms, you just got 'PWNed' in that argurement.12.227.228.41 (talk) 22:51, 24 October 2008 (UTC)Hatter

And since volume 21's publication, Viz has switched over to "visored". That's the sole reason "vizard" is no longer used on Wikipedia. ~SnapperTo 03:09, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Rogue Soul Reapers

Shouldn't the Visoreds be added under the "list of Soul Reapers"? According to this article they are rogue Soul Reapers, but they are still Soul Reapers. This would be similar to how Arrancar are listed under Hollows, since they are technically Hollows. Also, you could remove their section from List of Bleach characters and put it under the Soul Reaper section. ~ Hyakurei (talk) 18:56, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

A difference is that hollows and arrancar still work together. Soul Reapers and vizard do not. Also, vizard are listed with Soul Reapers (see all the Former officers sections). It's just that most of their information is consolidated here. ~SnapperTo 19:08, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

STOP SAYING VIZARD ITS VISORED. GOSH Suigetsu 22:24, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

It's a talk page. I can call them what I want to. ~SnapperTo 23:22, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

it's the VISORED talk page. I demand you use the horrid awkward smelly viz translation. Suigetsu 23:30, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

It's actually the visoreds talk page. Plz demand accurately. ~SnapperTo 23:36, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Speaking of horrid viz translations, did anyone find out why theyre calling Hiyori the "leader"? Beginning of the August issue of SJ's Bleach segment, when they give the character rundowns or whatever you call them. Shinji's always been the leader, and Hiyori's one of the weaker visoredizards. Suigetsu 03:30, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't know why they say Hiyori's the leader. She would be the last person to be the leader. ~ Hyakurei (talk) 13:08, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

maybe she's the visored leader and shinjis the vizard leader, it would explain the switch in usage Suigetsu 15:20, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

But isn't that the same thing? And to answer you previous question in the other talk page, I posted here after I posted there. ~ Hyakurei (talk) 13:20, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

That was a joke. Laugh. Har har har. Suigetsu 16:39, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Maybe she is the "Visoreds Leader" because Viz couldn't care less about the orginal matieral nor decent or at the very least CONSISTANT translation... doesn't it make you cry when illegal fansubs do a better job than the legal official translations! Sorry for my outburst... not-a-user: Tort 06:01, 16 August 2008 (GMT)

You do understand "vizard" isn't pronounced anything like the intended pronunciation, right? Suigetsu 05:21, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Why are we fighting? Seriusly? I mean, if you wanna go with exactly what the english says, then they need to be squad captains, no division. Why is it still division if we are going with the gay english translation? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.48.169.186 (talk) 23:59, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Don't know, don't care. Vandalizing the article with made up garbage like you've been doing is unacceptable regardless. --erachima talk 00:11, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Um, since when do Hollows and Arrancar work together? IIFRC, Hollows are usually solitary, and those under Aizen's command are basically slaves. The earlier point of Merging this article with the Shinigami article therefore still stands 162.83.174.85 (talk) 18:28, 30 August 2008 (UTC) (AnimeNikkaJamal, too lazy to login)

Hollows and Arrancar have always worked together. Always. Suigetsu 02:50, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I disagree on the basis of three facts:

1. The shinigami list is way too long already.
2. The shinigami explicitly reject the vizard as a member of their group, while the hollows have no issue with the arrancar.
3. The vizard state that they do not like or belong with soul society, while the arrancar recruit from the hollows.

So, there is no logical reason to merge the lists whatsoever, and several reasons not to. Sorry. --erachima talk 20:33, 30 August 2008 (UTC)