Talk:Vector Marketing/Archive 4

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Poor sources

There seems to be a lot of poorly sourced content on this page. Most of the sources used are either student blogs or campus newspapers. The reliable sources like this one http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=20040222&slug=jobads22 only mention Vector in passing and the statements don't actually reflect what is said on the page.Olaf Sergi Vlademere (talk) 14:47, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

Note: I've blocked this editor as it is obvious from their other contribs that they are an undisclosed paid editor. SmartSE (talk) 16:17, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 June 2019

please change "Vector Marketing is a multi-level marketing..." to "Vector Marketing is a single-level marketing..." per their website https://www.vectormarketing.com/who-we-are 2600:1702:4310:C580:54B6:897C:DFE9:1C30 (talk) 04:54, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: unreliable source. Most companies would not want to advertise themselves as an MLM. Saucy^{[talk – contribs]} 08:34, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 August 2019

Change "Vector is a multi-level marketing subsidiary company and the domestic sales arm of Cutco Corporation, an Olean, New York-based cutlery manufacturer.[1][2]"

to- "Vector Marketing is direct sales subsidiary company and the domestic sales arm of Cutco Corporation, an Olean, New York-based cutlery manufacturer."

Vector is an american company who complies through the DSA's (Direct sales association of America) code of ethics and guidelines, meaning they sell products directly to consumers, business to consumer, single-level marketing. 70.166.109.142 (talk) 01:46, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: Wikipedia goes by reliable sources with a strong preference for independent sources. Further, Wikipedia isn't a platform for promotion, and the DSA is a lobbying group, not a reliable source. Grayfell (talk) 01:48, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 November 2019

Vector Marketing is a single-level marketing company, not a multi-level. VectorMarketing.com has all the facts. Thank you! Kevintylergordon (talk) 18:42, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

The company is an MLM and multiple independent secondary WP:RS establish that fact. That's what we go by. Rhode Island Red (talk) 21:11, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

@Rhode Island Red: Just to play devil's advocate here – do they? There are 4 sources: one is a very brief mention in Popular Science that I wouldn't call reliable for a claim such as this. One is a student newspaper, also questionable reliability. One is a dead link (the Oakland one). And one is behind a paywall (The WSJ one), so it might be legit, but I can't tell, so anyone who can take a look at that one could help out. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 23:44, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

Sure, understood. The company filed a "State Authorized Multi-Level Marketing Agreement" with the State of Hawaii,[1] which is a definitive source. The company's BBB page also lists it as MLM,[2] And actually, this has been covered in a lot of college newspapers, not just one or two (presumably because the company has a track record of their reps trawling college campuses and targeting students, with questionable practices).[3][4][5][6][7][8][9]. There's a report by Fox 16 news.[10]. Haven't looked deeper than that; doesn't seem necessary. Rhode Island Red (talk) 00:24, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

That definitely looks a lot more solid, thanks for looking into this...I'm going to just close this as  Not done in that case. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 00:28, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

Good call. BTW, there's also this one (Oakland Press), which is now a dead link but still available archived.[11] Seem to get WP:SPA and anon IPs popping in from time to time to argue about the MLM issue but it has been discussed ad nauseam and the dissenters have lost the argument every time (see Talk archives). Cheers! Rhode Island Red (talk) 00:31, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 May 2020

Vector Marketing is a single level marketing firm. 24.236.124.145 (talk) 15:33, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

This same request has been made (by multiple anonymous WP:SPA) and rejected multiple times based on WP:RS (including the company's own official filing with the State of Hawaii) that describe it is an MLM. That should be apparent by simply reading this Talk page.Rhode Island Red (talk) 16:13, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Read the very first source in this article. Not done. Not going to happen. Praxidicae (talk) 16:44, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Reliable and Verifiable Sources

This source [12] does not mention a lawsuit, but is currently cited for this line: "In 2003, a recruit who was successful in a lawsuit against Vector for failing to adhere to labor laws in New York, co-founded a group, Students Against Vector Exploitation (SAVE)."

The only semi-relevant information stated is "Vector even inspired a group called Students Against Vector Exploitation (SAVE) who meet monthly to discuss proper injunctions. But they only have such groups on the east coast."

I haven't been able to find a reliable source for what's currently stated on this page, so can another editor find a reliable source? Otherwise it should be removed as it's not verifiable. Ayepaolo (talk) 18:55, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

This is the first hit on Google. VQuakr (talk) 19:34, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

@VQuakr: Hey thanks for the input and sorry, should have mentioned that one. It's a press release / self published piece, so it wouldn't meet WP:RS in this case. Ayepaolo (talk) 20:11, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

The article is authored by SAVE but it's neither self-published nor labeled as a press release. Rhode Island Red (talk) 21:28, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

It is not a press release. It may not be independent of SAVE, but we're not trying to establish notability here. VQuakr (talk) 06:16, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

VQuakr, are there any secondary independent sources about that lawsuit at all? I just looked and the only reliable sources are the court documents themselves. Maybe news media don't write about MLMs being pyramid schemes for the same reason they don't write about gravity still working, I don't know. Guy (help!) 11:22, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

JzG I haven't seen anything that is independent, but I don't think there is any need for independent sources here either. The supported claim isn't contentious or surprising. VQuakr (talk) 15:17, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

VQuakr, well, it's a lawsuit, so yes it's contentious. But it's a lawsuit against an MLM for scamming its distributors, so not, as you say, surprising. The question is whether it's WP:UNDUE in the absence of third party commentary. Guy (help!) 15:22, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Vector Marketing is single level marketing — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.181.117.18 (talk) 12:24, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 January 2021

Vector was not founded in PA, and is not a MLM. 162.225.242.33 (talk) 22:40, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 22:49, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 January 2021 (2)

Vector Marketing is a single-level marketing company, not a multi-level. VectorMarketing.com has all the facts. Thank you 162.225.242.33 (talk) 22:43, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. The company's website is not an independent source, nor should it be used for controversial things. Also, flooding us with multiple requests is unlikely to get them done any faster. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 22:50, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 May 2021

Take out the term Multi-level Marketing from the description of Vector Marketing. Vector Marketing is the exact opposite of an MLM, it is a single-level, one-on-one, marketing corporation. Also, the statement that it is not technically a pyramid scheme is misleading and inaccurate. It is in no way a pyramid scheme. BlakeMcN (talk) 18:51, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

 Not done @BlakeMcN: Please read the responses to the same question above. SmartSE (talk) 19:09, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

Los Angeles Times source

I wanted to explain a bit why I edited the article to downplay the Los Angeles Times source. I have no connection to Cutco or Vector Marketing, and in fact I think their recruiting practices are a bit scammy, but Wikipedia was using the LA Times to claim that Vector "meets the Federal Trade Commission's exact definition of a multi-level marketing company". However, this was sloppy reporting by the LA Times at best, and willful misrepresentation at worst. It's true that the FTC source cited by the article says MLM companies sell their products or services through person-to-person sales, and that Vector sells Cutco knives through person-to-person sales, but the FTC article never claimed that was the definition of an MLM, it was just using it to describe MLMs. It's like quoting an article that says "Tuna live in the ocean, eat small fish, and can weigh up to 1500lbs" to claim that bottlenose dolphins meet the exact definition of tuna. To prove that the FTC never intended that to be the definition of an MLM, one just has to look at the page at https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/business-guidance-concerning-multi-level-marketing, where it says:

Direct selling is a blanket term that encompasses a variety of business forms premised on person-to-person selling in locations other than a retail establishment, such as social media platforms or the home of the salesperson or prospective customer.

Multi-level marketing is one form of direct selling. Generally, a multi-level marketer (MLM) distributes products or services through a network of salespeople who are not employees of the company and do not receive a salary or wage. Instead, members of the company’s salesforce usually are treated as independent contractors, who may earn income depending on their own revenues and expenses. Typically, the company does not directly recruit its salesforce, but relies upon its existing salespeople to recruit additional salespeople, which creates multiple levels of “distributors” or “participants” organized in “downlines.” A participant’s “downline” is the network of his or her recruits, and recruits of those recruits, and so on.

In other words, the article cited by the LA Times was using the definition of direct selling to describe how MLMs operate, and while this is accurate because MLMs are a form of direct selling, it doesn't mean that all direct selling companies are MLMs. In the case of Vector/Cutco, there are no multiple levels or downlines. The do seem to offer referral bonuses for recruiting people, but frankly so do most companies these days (an no one's claiming Uber or DoorDash are MLMs). We should be describing Vector/Cutco as they actually are, a somewhat predatory single-level direct selling company with a controversial history of misleading business and recruiting practices, not as an MLM. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 23:37, 4 November 2021 (UTC)