Talk:Vauxhall B-Type

Conflicting information

G.N. Georgano's Complete Encyclopedia of Motorcars states :

(Context / background)

In 1905 the works were moved to Luton and the first attempt at competitions was made with the entry in the Tourist Trophy of a 3 cylinder car with overdrive gearbox. The classic Vauxhall radiator with its flutes appeared on a 3.3 litre T head 4 cylinder car introduced in 1906. This was followed by a smaller shaft drive 12/16, still T-headed, and the Pomeroy designed L-head 20hp, which gave 40hp, and won the 2,000 mile trial of 1908. Pomeroy's 4-cylinder cars were among the classic British designs of the next six years, boasting 5 bearing crankshafts and monobloc engines, and, from 1912, Hele-Shaw multi-plate clutches. In 1910 the first of the Prince Henry models with 3 litre engine won its spurs in the German trials of that name: these round-nose sporting Vauxhalls later grew up into 4 litres' with 70bhp, capable of 75 mph and selling for only £615 in 1913.

The company's bread and butter car was the smaller and staider A type on similar lines, joined in 1913 by a 4 litre D type with close affinities to the Prince Henry,

(the nub)

while the B-type, a 6 cylinder formal carriage with its cylinders cast in threes, was made in small numbers from 1910 onwards. A Linley pre-selective gearbox was listed as an option in 1911, ....

(more background - D type/Prince Henry/'30/98')

in which year Vauxhall started racing in earnest. Already a 3 litre with single seater streamlined body had recorded 100.08 mph over the flying kilometre, and cars were entered for the Coupe de l'Auto voiturette races of 1911, 1912 and 1913. These were followed by twin ohc designs in 1914 for the French Grand Prix and the Tourist Trophy. The GP model's 4.5 litre engines developed 130bhp. The prototype of Vauxhall's best known sporting model, the 30/98, appeared in 1913. Its capacity was 4.5 litres and it was listed at £925 in 1915, though only 13 were made before the outbreak of World War 1.

So, Vauxhall Type B - a low volume, formal, 6 cylinder, from 1910. No mention of different engines. Chienlit (talk) 08:32, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

To add to the confusion a brochure issued in 1993 by Vauxhall to celebrate their 90th anniversary has a list of all their cars and it lists two completely different B-Types. The first is the 1909-10 B-Type 16/20 with 2354cc 4 cylinder engine and described as a "Smaller version of the A". [This is 85x102 4-cyl and so displacement 2315 and not 2354 and 18 RAC hp if that is any help to identify, Eddaido (talk) 06:08, 14 February 2013 (UTC)] Production numbers not known. Then there is the 1910-15 30hp B-Type with 75 made and 6 cylinder engine of 3473, 4525 or 5013cc. Culshaw and Horrobin's Complete Catalogue of British Cars is no help as they attach the 16/20 title to a 1911 A-Type which can't be correct and make no reference to anything near a 2354cc engine. They also seem to have reversed the D-Type capacity to 5103cc.

Was the 1909 16/20 actually known as a B-Type. I don't know. Malcolma (talk) 10:36, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

I suspect there were two different 16-20 cars, 2315 cc (18 hp) and another 3054 cc (20 hp) but that is only a not well-informed guess. Eddaido (talk) 06:08, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Hi Malcolm. I'm now permanently on strike and will no longer type out references that people can easily enough pick up for themselves—can you look at The Times—I'd rather let WP be a re-hash by someone else according to their own lights and go into retirement from WP autos. So please don't go typing out long screeds as above. If necessary I can persuade a library to scan a passage and email it to me but they do like to charge for this and its true I do get bad-tempered about that.

The business of "A" type etc etc. This nomenclature / taxonomy (I'm no scientist) may have been used around the works at the time but nowhere else. I have as noted elsewhere one mention of the 25 h.p. being the "D" type in the chairman's speech for the 1915 AGM. The conflicts I referred to were within this article itself and I made changes that seem to be obvious but did Not mean to inspire so much finger exercise by you.

Two things I must do over the next few days; first read and understand what you have written to me above and then continue to prepare my own text for the article. I don't see why it should not be complementary to what is there now plus above rather than a total replacement. Regards, Eddaido (talk) 15:09, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

Sorry Malcolm, I see the first part was from Chienlit.

a. I would suggest that the first paragraph above "In 1905 the works were moved . . . for only £615 in 1913. " if it is a complete copy of Georgano is the work of a capable writer faced with some incompletely linked facts which must be skated over or through. It tells us so little because its the best the writer can do with the material he has to work with. What do you think?

b. So Georgano didn't know it was made in three sizes (probably increased as each was reported by customers to be underpowered). Vauxhalls were expensive

c. 30-98 Again it is almost as if the writer feels obliged to confuse a reader.

I suspect our problem is that people were simply writing down what they know and telling us about the things they know about probably well aware there are many Vauxhall things they didn't know they didn't know but unable to shine any light over them or lurk overhead with their drones!
I'm going to make a list below of the cars I know about from my sources. 'bye, Eddaido (talk) 06:08, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Vehicles

Readers we need to try to get this complete. If you disagree with anything on the schedule please use strike-out.
If you believe something is omitted please add it in italics

year	desc	desc 2	quantity	cylinders	valves	bore stroke	capacity	tax hp
1903-4	5/6hp		105	1			978 or 1029cc	First production car. Tiller steering. Made in London (pre Luton).
1904-5	7/9hp, 9hp, 12/14hp		110	3			1293, 1435 or 2431cc	Wheel steering.
1906	18hp		see below	4			3336cc	Luton built. Capacity also given as 3402cc
1906	12/16hp		note	4			2354cc	Luton built. Capacity also given as 2526cc. Production of 18hp and 12/15 about 100
190?	20	20						20hp before 1908
1909-10	16-20	B-type		4		85x102	2315	18hp 1st display Olympia Nov 1908
1910	27	27		6		85x102	3473	27hp 1st display Olympia Nov 1909
1908	20	A-Type	950	4		90x120	3054	20hp displayed Olympia Nov 1911
190?	20	09	253	4		90x120	3054	20hp
190?	20	11	359	4		90x120	3054	20hp
190?	20	12	57	4		90x120	3054	20hp
190?	23	12 3½-litre	21	4		95?x120	3402	22.4hp
190?	16-20	16-20	271	4		90x120	3054	20hp
1910	30	B-type	75	6		90x120	4525	30hp displayed Olympia Nov 1911
191?	35	B-type		6		95x120	5015	33.57hp
1911	20	C-type		4		90x120	3054	20hp displayed Olympia Nov 1911
191?	23	C-type Prince Henry		4		95x140	3969	22.4hp
1913	23	D-type	4500	4		95x140	3969	22.4hp
1913	30-98	30/98 E-type		4
1922	14	14 and 14/40. M-type, LM-type	5300	4	s.v.	75x130	2297	13.95hp
1922	23-60	23/60OD-Type	1400	4	ohv	95x140	3969	22.4hp First ohv Vauxhall
1926	25-70	25/70 S-Type	50	6	sleeve	81.5x124	3881	24.71hp
1927	20-60	20/60 R-type	4228	6		73x110	2762	19.82hp
1927	20-60	20/60 T-type	1172	6	ohv	75x110	2916	20.93hp
1931	80	T80 and Silent 80	624	6	ohv	80x110	3318	23.81hp

You input will be welcomed. Thanks, Eddaido (talk) 06:42, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

I've added what I can from the 90th anniversary brochure. Beware of relying too much on capacity (cc) figures on early cars. They are notoriously inaccurate. I've now added more from Cars of the 1920sMalcolma (talk) 10:00, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Thank you Malcolm. I'm not able to give it more attention for a while yet but I do think we make progress. Regards, Eddaido (talk) 10:00, 15 February 2013 (UTC)