Talk:Varieties of Modern Greek

Yet to do...

Just some brainstorming what might yet be added to this article:

• Discussion of research history (when was the common descent of most dialects from Koine established?)\
  • Some history added. Trudgill also has some interesting information.--Yannismarou (talk) 10:53, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
• Syntax: position of clitic object pronouns (didn't Cretan or Cypriot preserve the post-verbal ones longer?)
• Some small transcribed dialect samples?
• Spoken dialect recordings, anybody?
• Some notes on the dialects of urban centers outside Greece? Constantinopolitan Greek, Alexandrian?
  • Kontosopoulos speaks about the Greek of Smyrna. In Constantinople it seems that Greek had very few dialecticisms (per Kontosopoulos again).--Yannismarou (talk) 10:53, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
• Effects of dialect mixture after 1923 resettlements?
• A common map showing all the Greek-speaking dialect areas outside Greece together?

Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:55, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I am honestly not certain there are dialects existing within the contemporary modern Greek state. The distinction between Aegean islanders and other Greeks allegedly rests partly on the use of inda vs ti, inda not being at all widespread in use (I have personally only heard it in Crete and Cyprus). Some modern Thessalian, Macedonian and Thracian speakers using se instead of sou, would that be enough to make a modern dialect? It might have been more meaningful to focus on the regional dialects prior to the establishment of a modern Greek state. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Skamnelis (talk • contribs) 03:48, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Suggestion

I don't know if in "Diglossia" we could include a sample: a text in two coloumns; first in katharevousa then in dimotiki. An article from the Constitution of Greece, initially written in simple katharevousa (and politonic) and "translated" in 1986 in dimotiki (and monotonic) would work fine I believe; if you agree with the idea, I think I could find both versions in dimotiki and katharevousa.--Yannismarou (talk) 15:05, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Φωνή βοόντος εν τη ερήμω!--Yannismarou (talk) 07:54, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

---

How come the Ionian Islands are grouped together with the Peloponnese? The Ionian accent -especially that of Corfu and Paxi-as well as the "dialect" is very different from any other one spoken in Greece today. For an extensive Lexicon of the dialect of Corfu look at:http://kerkiraikolexiko.blogspot.com/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.63.24.128 (talk) 00:45, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Macedonian dialect

Some people have said on the talk page of Macedonia disambig. page that there wasn't enough info in this article prooving that Macedonian is indeed a modern Greek northern variety. I'm pasting here the sources I've provided there

Here are some sources on the Macedonian dialect explicitly referring to the dialect of modern Greek

quote from a book on Greek phonology

Now in modern Greek the dialects are divided sharply on this point. The dialects of Macedonia, Thrace and Thessaly have "σε δίνω", those of the rest of of Greece "σου δίνω", in the sense of "I give you"

quote from just one linguistics book

THE MACEDONIAN DIALECT (note: a whole chapter) : The Greek language has come down to us, like the old Teutonic language, in a number of dialects and sub-dialects

quote from a book about the Greek Testament

the dialect spoken in most of northern Greece ...the Macedonian dialect uses accusative clitics

In the Bible. Here is just one book I could find that specifically mentions that passage

Why were you called Timotheus by the Thessalonians? he replied : "In the Thessalonian dialect Timotheus meant the same as leader or bishop.". Note that the meaning of the word Thessalonian at that time transcended to Macedonian —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shadowmorph (talk • contribs) 14:35, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

This refers to two different eras. Only the first (and perhaps the third; the link is broken) refers to Modern Greek; the others all address the dialects of Classical Greek, which would all be unintelligible to an uneducated speaker of Demotic. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:04, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Megara

Please do not pain classicists by calling Megara part of Attica; in English usage Attica ends at Eleusis. I trust the compromise come up with is vague enough to be acceptable. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:07, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Pontic

There is a confusion here; the speakers of Greek in Pontus now are Muslims, and call their mother-tongue Romaic. Although the difference is almost entirely religious, it is misleading to call them Pontic Greeks. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:15, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

the section clearly differentiates between pontic greeks in greece and muslim pontic speakers in turkey —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.74.248.235 (talk) 07:14, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

But it is less than clear about distinguishing between Pontic Greeks (Orthodox by the definition of the Treaty of Lausanne) and Turkish speakers of the dialect self-identified as Romaic. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:59, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

it's perfectly obvious that the section is specifically referring to the major subset (93%) of pontic greeks (-> patricks who came to greece) who still speak the pontic greek dialect, not the (7%) minority of (ex) turkish speakers so this should deal with a possible "greek vs speaker of greek" point. that the two groups (pontic-greek-speaking greeks in greece and pontic-greek-speaking turks in turkey) aren't sufficiently differentiated in the section might have some basis but it still seems like nitpicking to me. i'm not sure why you are repeating the "romaic" point since that's the way the dialect is called by pontic-greek-speaking greeks in greece as well, at least informally, like other "eastern" dialects e.g. mariupolitan/crimaic greek/tauro-romaic. anyway, a difference in self-identification wouldn't have any impact on strictly linguistic matters unless the self-id party had a yugoslav army backing it up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.72.84.177 (talk) 18:11, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

What is perfectly obvious to the author of an article is often not perfectly obvious to readers; that's one reason we are a coöperative enterprise. This energy would be better spent on rephrasing the section. Is it worth my recasting it, or will I simply be reverted? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:03, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

i'm speaking as, no, i am a random reader, not an "author". do whatever you want, give the whole article a facelift, you will get no reverts from me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.74.255.48 (talk) 10:02, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

If the term "Romaic" is established for the idiom the Muslim Pontic speakers of Pontus use, then I don't see a problem. I suppose you have the adequate verifiable sources.--Yannismarou (talk) 13:35, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Southern Anatolia

Hi, i wanted to ask about these Greeks from southern Anatolian coast like Pamfylia and Kilikia. I know that these Greeks came to Greece during exchange, and there settled ancient Greeks too. But what language they used befour 1923? I dont think that standard demotic, maybe dialect closed to pontic? Can someone tell me this? Thank you.--213.151.217.130 (talk) 10:44, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

If I may respond to this question five years later, I doubt anyone documented specifically the Greek dialects of Cilicia and Pamphylia, which is probably why this question has not been answered. Of course there was no "standard Demotic" in 1922. The immigrants and refugees from Asia Minor spoke regional forms of Greek with varying degrees of Turkish loanwords, and sometimes spoke Turkish, although they were Christian Orthodox and considered themselves "Romans" (Romioi). Τhere was at least one style of Greek that approached the mainstream since there were by that time a fair number of Greek schools. Conversely, a number of Turkish loanwords used today in some areas (for example in Athens) originate from these immigrants and refugees, e.g. νταἠς, μἀγκας, σερέτης, τενεκές, μπεγλἐρι, μπαγλαμἀς, νταραβἐρι, etc. Skamnelis (talk) 11:57, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Accompanying picture

I was a little puzzled about the white areas in Attica and Euboia. Does that mean that around 1900, Greek wasn't spoken natively in Athens? Seems quite unlikely to me... Or that this area is so diverse that no dialect predominates and people use Standard Greek instead? Seems okay for Athens, but for southern Euboia too...? So what is it supposed to indicate? Steinbach (talk) 14:24, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

It's in fact explained in the article: "in a contiguous area around the capital Athens [...], there is a "dialectal void" where no distinctly marked traditional Greek dialects are found. This is due to the fact that these areas were once predominantly inhabited by speakers of Arvanitika Albanian." The town of Athens itself was a Greek-speaking enclave in an otherwise solidly Albanian-speaking Attica in the early 19th century. By 1900, the city itself had of course begun to grow quite considerably, with a strong influx of Greek-speakers from other parts of the country, but the countryside around it was still predominantly Albanophone. That doesn't mean those people didn't also speak Greek (in fact, many or most were probably bilingual), but there's apparently no clearly discernible traditional Greek dialect there. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:53, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Thank you, I should have read more closely indeed. On the other hand, an albanophone Attica would not have been the first thing I'd thought of, as much as this region seems to me the heart of Greece. Steinbach (talk) 21:28, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

"Artificially archaic"

Written (learned) Greek is usually the only attested form of the language at least until the end of the Byzantine period. It may have differed from the vernacular in that way in which most modern professional and technical writing (legal, medical, scientific, etc) presents the non-expert with difficulties. That does not make learned Greek, however, "artificial", that word is entirely meaningless when it is applied to the outcome of education. It is also, certainly, not "archaic", maybe conservative.Skamnelis (talk) 13:04, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Since writers of literary Greek typically – to varying extents – intentionally emulated significantly older authors and consciously avoided updating the written language to reflect changes in the spoken language, "artificially archaic" is a fair description. Of course this is a feature of all written languages, but Greek is a particularly extreme example, although very similar dynamics can be observed in the history of Latin, with New Latin typically being particularly archaising. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 19:47, 1 September 2020 (UTC)