Talk:Valencian language/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Deleted

I've deleted the following from the main article, since it seems quite unclear:Marco NevesMarco Neves

From the article "Valencian language of that epoch", originally linked from Joanot Martorell:

The Valencian language exists historically before Catalan was officially used.

There are two theories about the origin of the Valencian language. Which of them is the truth is not clear at the moment.

First theory, and the most popular one, is that after the reconquest of the Iberian peninsula from the Muslims, the inhabitants of the region of Valencia forgot their then language, and adopted the language of the reconquerors (Romance in the epoch) as their own language.

The other one, is that after the reconquest, the inhabitants of the region of Valencia were influenced by the language of the reconquerors (Romance in the epoch), and then it was developed by its speakers to the point that Valencian region was a region with very rich culture. So, it is normal the appearing of books of Joanot Martorell and Ausias March.

Avoid dispute

We should avoid a dispute about the status of Valencian, taking into attention the fact that some Valencians make it a point of honour to consider Valencià a language and not a dialect. However, I'm Portuguese and to me it would be just fine if Valencian were a language. But I've read and studied lots of texts in both varieties (Catalan and Valencian) and I have encounteres very few palpable differences. It seems just logic to consider them (Catalan and Valencian) two official standards of the same dialectal continuum (the same could be said of European and Brazilian Portuguese, even if the concept of dialectal continuum would be hard to apply in that case). With some work, a criterion could be devised to establish what is and what is not a language in Iberian Peninsula (to apply it in other places could be inaccurate): for instances, in contact zones between Spanish and Catalan and Spanish and Portuguese, a person can speak one or both languages, but it is hard to find someone who constantly speaks a mixture of both (even if it can be found as a joke or in same other contexts) - there is a break rather than a continuum. In the case of Valencian/Catalan, probably no one speaks both "languages", but speaks a variety (ideolect) which can be nearer to one or other standard. Very few people feel the need to learn Valencian if they speak Catalan and vice versa. It could be called the "continuum criterion". I've not created it, but I'm trying to apply it to this particular situation. It still needs some work, but I'd love to hear opinions on the subject. --Marco Neves 23:25, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC) P.S.: Please, taking into account that calling Valencian a dialect is not to say their language is inferior to Central Catalan. Central Catalan and Valencian are just two dialects (which happen to be both standard) of the same language. There are much more and all have the same linguistic value.

Some good points, although I have some friends who live in Alicante province, in a village where all the locals speak Valenciano (Valencian) and as they just speak spanish they have found it hard to communicate. Thankfully there are some in the village who speak both Valencian and Spanish, but they are still trying to learn Valencian, as they can struggle talking to some people. I would suggest that it is a language because of how different it is from Spanish, and that not all Valencian speakers neccessary understand well-spoken Spanish. This is going to be discussed forever, I think (or until Communidad Valencia claims independance!) Woodgreener 14:13, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Of course Valencian is not a dialect of Spanish!! They're two completely different languages! We're talking about Valencian being a dialect of Catalan, since they're more similar than American and England english. Sirstrahd 22:59, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Redirect

I have moved here the last valid text from Valencian dialect. Since the classification of Valencian is disputed (at least at street and political level), having "dialect" or "language" in the title is not neutral. We may have similar case with Galician. -- Error 03:32, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Passers-by please note: there is discussion at Talk:Valencian dialect that has not been moved here. Chameleon 17:18, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

WHOEVER IS RUNNING THIS SECTION OF WIKIPEDIA IS AS FAR AWAY FROM NEUTRALITY AS POSSIBLE.

You are blatantly partisan in this debate and what is more, YOU REFUSE TO PRESENT BOTH SIDES OF THE ISSUE.

If you had any sort of conscience YOUR FACE WOULD BE IN A CONSTANT CRIMSON FLUSH OF SHAME.

Catalan countries, unity of the language,

EVERYTHING IN THIS HEADING OF VALENCIAN IS A CABRON COPY OF A BARCELONA NATIONALIST´S WETTEST DREAM.

Well said! It is disgraceful that this c**p should be published on a site people actually trust like Wikipedia. Valencian is the language of Valencia, IT IS NOT CATALAN, IT IS VALENCIAN, IT IS DIFFERENT.

I think the capital letters used by the above anonymous contributor speak for themselves. The other participants are trying to be as dispassionate as possible.

Nobody disputes that "Valencian is the language of Valencia", it has been called that for centuries, as the same language is called "eivissenc", "empordanès", "menorquí, "rossellonès" elsewhere, following the names of the respective regions. No problem.

What is disputed is his or her next claim: that "IT IS NOT CATALAN". Well, our much-loved King James I the Conqueror, would not be happy with that claim (being responsible for the language being introduced into Valencia -and some of the territories mentioned above- in the first place!!!).

The courts don't agree. That is, if you have a degree on Catalan Philology (and even universities in Valencia call it this, using the academically accepted term), the Valencian goverment can't exclude you from applying for a job as a teacher... though it has insistently flouted court's decisions every time it advertises new competitions ("oposicions") for teaching jobs.

As to our anonymous contributor's claim that "IT IS DIFFERENT", we must ask, different from what? The way people speka in Barcelona? OK. In Majorca? OK. In Perpignan? OK. But these differences are typical within any language: they are merely regional varieties (what we used to call dialects, but that word has come to be despective). Spanish (and English too) has much larger internal differences but noone except a lunatic fringe questions the unity of the language. Strubell —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.34.161.78 (talk) 12:19, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

False differences

>Chamaleon said: no false.

Yes, false. In Barcelona we use "molt" and "tant" with and without "de" ("molt de temps"). Like in Valencian. I've visited other pages explaining exactly the opposite, that in Valencian "de" is never used.

The word "hom" is dead in Catalan. It is only is used in dictionaries. Nobody say "hom" in Catalonia. It is like the preposition "so" in Spanish. Who uses this preposition? The dictionaries, the legal texts..., but not the people. Llull 14:37, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Ah, I see. We have the same problem in English. False differences between British and American English are cited which are actually differences between formal/standard English and vulgar/local English (e.g. the use of "shall", "indeed", "whom"...).

I think I have paid too much attention to Valencian separatists in putting in the hom and molt de examples. I have also noticed that they say that there is no geminate L in Valencian. Of course, hardly anyone in Catalonia pronounces it either, so it's a fake difference. Chameleon 14:59, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Buf..., don't visit more this type of webs... nobody of them speaks really these language. They ignore absolutly all about Catalan/Valencian -> they only want to destroy this language. A good source is dcvb.iecat.net where there is the transcription of the words depending of the location. Search, for example, seixanta/xixanta (¿in Barcelona the people speak Valencian?). Llull 15:22, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Nonsense. There is no such thing called "valentian separatists". Valencian is a minoritary language and it is so recogniced by de European Union. Catalan nationalism is expansive and tries to absorb Valencia in many fields. Valencia and Catalonia are today Autonomic Comunities, but in the past Valencia was a kingom an Catalonia a county. In the 2nd half of the 19th century Catalonia began to grow economically, and they began a process of rebirth of the catalan dialect. Then, they searched "identity differential signs", only to find hat they had no classical authors and no notorious literature on wich base the language codification, ( performed by Pompeius Fabra). In that situation they noted than the valentians had a very large literary tradition, including the "Tirant", the works of Ausias March, Jaume Roig, Isabel de Villena, Joan Rois de Corella, and lot more, originaly written in valencian. Then they began a subreptitious process of assimilation and taking posession of the valencian culture. The valentians did nothing, in part because tey did not note nothing strange... until recently. Now catalans have unmasked thenselves, (Maravall, Carod-Rovira), and they act not so subtle, rather rudely as we are seeing in the diaries of recent days.

Please. I beg you to respect the European Constitution, the spanish constitution, and the Estatuto de Autonomía valenciano, and regard the valencian as the language it is. For the pressent it is very difficult to the valentians to express freely anywere because of the implacable pressure political, econnomical and cultural the catalans exert to drown their affirmation. Catalans have lot to loose if everything is known.

Please, visit this page, in this wikipedia to read another source of information and important documentation. It has been place on an alternative page because everytime the valentians say something in favour of their identity the catalans rush to drown it.

About English and American, they are regarded as the same language, in part because their governs agree them to be so. Serbian an Croatian languages have less differences between them than GB and UUSS, but they are considered as separate languages. Of course, this distintion is political, but the catalan invasive attitude is not less political.

--82.159.136.1 10:36, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I beg to differ. What is our anonymous contributor 82.159.136.1 talking about? Let's look at what he/shje says, point by point.

1. "Valencian is a minoritary language and it is so recogniced by de European Union." Balderdash. When has the European Union "recognised" Valencian? I think he or she has read too many Spanish-language Valencian newspaper headlines and Valencian government declarations. perhaps he or she refers to when the defunct Constitutional Treaty was translated, a Valencian version was devliered by the Spanish government. True, but the Catalan version was word for word, letter for letter, the same text (there was no need to have two sets of translators dioing the same work!). The Union officially and publically received "four texts, in three languages". "Catalan nationalism is expansive and tries to absorb Valencia in many fields." This is a common paranoia (as is his or her later affirmation "The valentians did nothing, in part because tey did not note nothing strange... until recently. Now catalans have unmasked thenselves"! He then refers not to men of culture, but to politicians! Then further on he or she claims "everytime the (sic) valentians say something in favour of their identity the catalans rush to drown it"). Perhaps he or she is referring to the concept of "Països Catalans", or "Catalan lands". Well, he ought to remember that concept was thought up by Valencians. Traitors", I suppose he or she considers them! "Valencia and Catalonia are today Autonomic Comunities, but in the past Valencia was a kingom an Catalonia a county." It's good that our anonymous contributor talks about history. When Valencia was taken from the Moors by king James I the Conqueror, who was king of Aragon and Count of Barcelona, he added Valencia to his realms, calling it a Kingdom. The fact is, though, that all these territories shared the same monarch, and all had the same levels of self-government and similar governing institutions until the defeat of the Habsburg pretender at the hands of Philip IV (of Aragon) and in the early 18th century. So whether each territory was a "county" or a "kingdom" seems a rather childish debate. I could go on all day. As readrs can see I haven't got past the first third or what our anonymous contributor has to say. Finally, I know it would be politically incorrect to suggest that the link to the wiki he invites people to visit (significantly, not in Catalan-Valencian but in Spanish?) be removed (I challenge readers to find a wiki wghich is less objective and less academically substantiated. So I won't! 80.34.161.78 (talk) 13:10, 15 February 2009 (UTC)Strubell|Strubell February 15 2009 1345h CET

The existence of plenty of Valencian literature is not in dispute, just as the existence of American literature is not in dispute. But writing by Valencians in their own language is part of a wider body of work in Catalan, just as writing by Americans in their own language is part of a wider body of work in English. The same goes for Latin American varieties of Spanish, or Serbian and Croatian varieties of Serbo-Croat. Chameleon 12:05, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Serbo-Croat is not a language, but a linguistic system. Serbian and Croatian claim for their rights to have their languages, and the international comunity recognices them as independents. So happens with Valenciano and Catalán, but, in spite of the legal recognition some people act and write as if they were the same. Your asseverations only reflect that the pressure and influence of catalans is superior. Or perhaps you became too much involved when you stayed in Catalonia. You continue repeating the same arguments. This does not give you very much credibility. Your arguments are byased by catalan point of view. They are not valid. In any case it is forthseeing wether the differences between serbian and croatian are bigger or smaller than the differences between catalan and valenciano.

A literary tradition justifies an independent language. In our case, the problem is that in the late XIX century catalans took advantage over valentians in settling regulations and they used valencian literature. Their lenguage is fonetically completely different from valenciano, but, as soon as they used the valencian written literature for their regulations, them the written catalan became very, very simmilar to valenciano. So, now they are commiting us to use our most archaic form of our own language to assimitate it to theirs. This is seen as a nonsense in Valencia. Furthermore, when we feel they are dragging us to the fusion of our languages we grow in anger, as you should understand. --Wikiküntscher 22:35, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The relation of 'Serbian' to 'Croatian' is EXACTLY the same as the relation of 'Catalan' to 'Valencian', which means both pairs of 'languages' are in fact ONE language, politically devided into 2, even though the vocabularies and the grammar in them are 98 to 99% the same. This division in both pairs of languages, being only political and temporary, can easily dissapear when on power come some reasonable and progressive politicians, who instead of hatred and division-will offer connection and unity of the language. Cheers.24.86.127.209 (talk) 05:54, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, american literature is considerated as english, true, but you forget the fact than catalonia seems to enjoy a special hability for take possesion of some authors that are definitively placed at the very beggining of the language's birth. So, I mean, there's allegedly no author FROM the lands of "catalonia" in the catalonian's literature supossed golden age, everyone of them is from valencia or balearic islands. I'm afraid this is actually a political issue and we can be ages arguing at this.

The fact that the "valencian as an independent language" defenders have to resort to political or legal arguments to win a scientific debate, and their need to resort to dubious authors to prove their points (César Vidal, referenced here is pretty infamious in the historic research world for both his extremely right wing biased views, and his inability to provide proof for most of his claims) is pretty much an argument against them by itself. Also, please do check Wikipedia:Sign_your_posts_on_talk_pages, this gets pretty confusing if you don't know who's writing what. Sirstrahd 23:43, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I totally agree with [[User:Sirstrahd|Sirstrahd] "valencian as an independent language" defenders have to always relly on political and legal arguments in themselves controversial. Some due very diferent reasons ( to constantly refer to a very ambigous statement about valencian in the constitution, writen at a very delicate time in spanish history, trying to please everybody)

To all people who are unfamiliar with the catalan - valencian "conflict" all this is very confusing

SO, if anybody bothers piking up a few linguist books, that base their concluson on scientific methods and studies ( diferences in vocabulary and phoetics of a thousand different languages and dialects), and not on emotional and political concoctions, one realises that all of this is unnecesary.

Valencian is a variation of catalan, and if you want to call valencian a language, do so, as long as you know that catalan language and valencian language are exacly the same thing. Terminology has ever been the weak point of all science and philosophy.

Its not a question of national identity, or of catalonia trying to steal valencian pride. ITS NOT ABOUT THAT. It's about a language that need a boost if it doesn't want to disapear, so the last thing we need is a few emotional prideful separatists that try to mix it all up.

You may be a spanish nationalist, and catalan ntionalist, a valencian nationalist... Be whatever you want. But one thing is clear... Science is science, and every reliable study tells us that valencia and balear anb barceloni are all one laguage "Catalan". And no, IM am not catalan, ''''I am a valencian' student who studies valencian every day, and has had to learn the diferences between many dialects.

So please, before you babble, read a good language book, be all the political you want, but deform the truth. Also, you must notice that most people that defend this separatist view don't even speak valencià, and deffend this view for purely pilotical or prideful reasons

Please, read reliable sources and do not be influenced by politics

Eshana anam 18:53, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Well , first of all sorry for my english because i'm not english , i'm valencian.I don't know exactly where are you from , but i've heard your opinion before. I can guess you're a valencian person who in fact doesn't speak valencian , and your only interest is to divide it because you feel spanish and you hate catalan people . It's not what is argued here, hates and loves.

If you really were concerned about valencian language, you would promote it everywhere and you could be able to speak it perfectly, but i guess you don't . A person who really loves valencian and tries to use it in order it doesn't dissapear , would accept that catalan and valencian is the same , because if we divide we lose against the language of the official power : spanish , and our language will dissapear. Sorry for not being "neutral" , but i'm fed up with people who defends a language that they don't speak ( a supposed valencian ) , only to divide valencian (catalan) and make it dissapear . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.42.250.70 (talk) 16:42, 6 February 2008 (UTC) (formatting changed for readibility --Enric Naval (talk) 10:33, 12 February 2008 (UTC))

Constitution

According to La constitución europea en catalán y en valenciano sí son diferentes, the texts are different. Whether the difference is because of different translators or different languages is open to discussion. -- Error 04:06, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The constitution presented is exactly the same without differences and with the only difference of the names in the cover. You know. Llull 12:34, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

That was a trick from the President of the Generalitat Catalana, Maravall. He used the valencian translation from the AVL, (a very catalaniced institution), copied it and presented it as the "catalan translation". So, when the translations were presented, they were exactly the same. Follow this link:

http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2004/11/05/espana/1099669518.html

Do not mistake Maragall for Maravall (a former minister of education) ;-) — Miguel 17:26, 2004 Nov 17 (UTC)

Few days later, Carod-Rovira, an extremely nationalist catalan, forced Zapatero to recognice only 3 official languages aside from Castellano, (And Valenciano was excluded, (ilegally)). Carod-Rovira achieved that by blackmailing Zapatero, threatening to retire the support of his party to Zapatero's state budget.

--Wikiküntscher 22:45, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

As a result of this, there has been some agitation in Valencia against the central government, most vocally by regional PP leaders like Zaplana. It seems the central Spanish government simply can't win this one. The best strategy would be to get the Generalitats of Catalunya, Valencia and Illes Balears to settle their differences first. — Miguel 18:24, 2004 Dec 7 (UTC)

That's impossible, at least while the PP is ruling Valencia. They've turned the language issue into an electoral weapon. Luckily enough, Jaume Matas, from Illes Balears, is a member of the moderate movement within the PP and should be more open to reason Sirstrahd 00:14, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Where can we get a copy of this? Chameleon 14:03, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Nowhere. I searched. But the news in Spain are full of this new. The texts linked in the other new only are a little resume and no the final version. The IEC reviwed the Valencian version and said that was 100% correct with their language rules. Llull 14:48, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Here is the catalan version:http://www.la-moncloa.es/web/pdf/ConstitucionEU/ConstitucionEU_CA.pdf
and here the valencian:http://www.la-moncloa.es/web/pdf/ConstitucionEU/ConstitucionEU_VA.pdf

You can see there are lots of differences, even with a valencian regulation heavily dominated by catalan interferences. We hope, in Valencia, anytime in the future, we will can dismisse the great mayority of "catalaniced" achademicians that are in the AVL and settle another regulations more in face to the reality. --Wikiküntscher 22:56, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Out with the lingüists, in with the politicians? Sirstrahd 00:14, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I think "trick" is a harsh word. The two translations were co-ordinated into one. In the same way, I would expect translators working on an official diplomatic text in, say, Chinese that needed to have English versions for the UK and US to collaborate in order for the two versions to be identical apart from any unavoidable differences. Even if the two versions were very different, it would not prove the existence of two languages. I have bought products with lists of ingredients in different languages, and I have seen two separate lists for Spain and Argentina, one with patata and one with papa. This implies two dialects, not two languages.

The difference between a language and a dialect is not linguistic, but rather political. Argentina and Perú would not win anythig if they affirm the independence of their language against español. Catalonia will gain important political advantages if the unification of the languages is recogniced and the political implications begin to work.--Wikiküntscher 10:44, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Note that the texts say Aquest text no té valor oficial i s’ha de considerar purament informatiu.. Are they therefore simple drafts, and not the final unified version? Chameleon 23:35, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

That is probably because Catalan/Valencian are not official languages of the EU. The Spanish govenrmnet has indicated its willingness to lobby the EU to allow Galician, Basque and Catalan/Valencian to be used in EU venues. However, until the Catalan, Valencian and Balears figure out their differences the whole process may be stalled because of the political fallout within Spain. — Miguel 18:24, 2004 Dec 7 (UTC)

Ah, I think I understand. I was confusing the EU constitution and the Autonomy Statutes of the two Communities. The Catalan/Valencian versions of the EU constitution are unofficial because Catalan/Valencian is not a language of any member state. Two different versions seem to have been produced. Regarding the differences between the versions, there are several things I've noticed. One is that there are slight non-linguistic differences, such as the order of list items. The other is that the majority of differences are in wording and turns of phrase that could be heard in either Community (e.g. HAN ACORDAT les disposicions següents vs. HAN ACORDAT les següents disposicions; només es podran adoptar vs. només podran adoptar-se...). Finally, there are minor dialectal differences (e.g. aquest vs. este) which are well-accepted variations within Catalan (the ajuntament here in Valencia uses the allegedly "Catalan" form aquest).

I believe however that the Autonomy Statutes really are the same, however. Chameleon 23:49, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The autonomy statutes are different! They are the governing documents of two different autonomous communities. You also have to keep in mind the Spanish constitution. — Miguel 17:26, 2004 Nov 17 (UTC)

Wikiküntscher, do you even speak Valencian? I see you call it valenciano, i.e. the Castilian name for it. Castilian is irrelevant to this debate, so why do you use Castilian words? Is it because you think in Castilian? I think the Catalan accusation that Valencian anti-Catalanists are all Castilian-speakers and do not actually speak Valencian is probably true. Chameleon 23:52, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Of course. I work in a rural area and I have to speak in Valencian, (if you prefer me to use the english word), normally with 50-60 people during a single morning, and frequently more. Parle valencià i el escrig en normes ortografiques valencianes, encara que no tot lo correctament que voldria, pero tot s'anarà. Poquet a poquet. He depres el valencià per una via basicament oral. La via escrita estaba dominada per l'ortografia catalana. Yo he nascut en Valencia, on se parla predomantement castellà, pero el meu pare era d'un poble d'Alacant y la meua mare es mallorquina. En casa parlavem castellà, perque mon pare y ma mare no s'entenien en atra llengua. Pero en el colege, en els meus amics, en vacacions en el poble del meu pare, etc... el valencià ha segut sempre una segona llengua... i en el lloc on treballe es la primera. En els anys huitanta, quan va començar allo de la "normalitsaciò", la gent llegia i escoltava el valencià "oficial" i deia " Aixo no es valencià. ¿Aixo que es?, i li contestaven " Aixo es valencià normalitzat, el valencià cult. Ells pensaven "puix a mi me pareix català", i li tornaven a contestar "es lo mateix. Valencià i català son lo mateix". Passant el temps es van acostumbrar i ara no mes es riuen un poquet per dins, pero en un poquet de por, tambe, de dir lo que pensen. Ademes de això, la gent que ha parlat des de sempre en valencià s'a trobat en que els chiquets, quan tornen del colege diuen als seus pares "No ho dius be, pare. No se diu pardal, se diu ocell" i moltes atres coses per l'estil.Com als pares no les van ensenyar valencià en l'escola quan eren chicotets ara no tenen atre remei que callarse. El problema es que la gent ya comença a vacilar quan parla valencià, perque pensa que pot ser que no estiga parlant correctament. 25 anys de normalitsació catalanisada han deixat ya la seua calcigada. Una societat dividida i vacilante en uns politics ambivalents, i que tenen que recorrer a sovint a artimanyes i a vegades a estafes per a mantindre'se en el seu puesto--Wikiküntscher 08:48, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC).

Funny that most of the words you use that are not present in Catalan are Castilian intrusions (like vacilante), and others are present but with slightly different meanings. Also a Valencian friend from my university which i just showed your text through gtalk tells me you're forcing your language to use non-catalan words, though I, being catalan myself, understand each and every one of them. Sirstrahd 00:14, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I enjoyed your note here; as a native speaker of English who is studying Catalan as a second language, it is delightful to me that I have, somehow, inadvertently also coincidentally acquired competence in the totally separate and distinct language of Valencian. I had no idea I was learning so much. 76.242.155.180 (talk) 06:52, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Take a look to this link. It is from teh papers today: http://www.lasprovincias.es/valencia/pg041115/prensa/noticias/Politica/200411/15/VAL-POL-048.html --Wikiküntscher 10:51, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This is not about language. It is about politics. You just don't like Catalans. We must not let this project be coloured by such feelings. There is no serious doubt as to the unity of the language. I don't want to waste any more time on this single issue. Chameleon 13:48, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Chameleon, you seem to be on a payroll from Barcelona. Funny stuff, seeing you accuse someone else of politics when your entire summaries reak of them. You tried to make an ad hominem attack on the Valencian fellow with the German name and he replied to you in Normes del Puig valencià and thereby called your bluff, and he did so with sincerity. Now you profess "the unity of the language" like a parrot when clearly there are significant differences. With the exception of Northern Castellò and Tortosa, the speakers of both varieties DO enter in conflicts due to communication breakdown. If you fail to see this then you are blind. Now, I would assume that you know the connotative difference between "unitat" in valencià and "unity" in English. In English it refers to a together-ness of elements, whereas in valencià it can mean a single BLOCK of something, AND IN A HETEROGENOUS LINGUISTIC POOL THIS IS SIMPLY UNTENABLE. If these entries on Valencian are yours, then you are blatantly misrepresenting the truth and the facts. Funny how almost all of your information comes from Catalonia and not from Valencia. Funny how you cover up the existence of the RACV and how you even prize the Institut d´Estudis Catalans´ information over that of the highly Catalanized AVL. And if it weren't so outright immoral, funny how you come along playing games with the language of a place you don't seem to respect, and misleading the rest of the world about it. user name: Latinoeuropa.

Of course, he's obviously being paid to point his views by "Maravall". The catalans are paying to take over the english Wikipedia ;). Myself, I'm not paid by anyone (though I'm open to offers). Facts, or at least real ones, would be nice from time to time... Shouting your rage to the winds is nice too, but it doesn't make you any more right, though it does succeed in making you quite more noisy.Sirstrahd 00:14, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Invalid and partial definition

I certainly agree with whoever is calling to the attention of the person who runs this section of the site that they are using misleading and false information. Chameleon, I believe you have a duty (a matter of integrity) to report all sides of the issue and let the reader judge their legitimacy, rather than to have you telling people what to believe. Remember, many people come here to know more, and you are deliberately manipulating their understanding.

I think it suffices to say that you have a DECIDEDLY pro-Catalan vision of this situation and you BLATANTLY DISREGARD many OBJECTIVE FACTS AND REALITIES in order to suit your posture. Normally I would try to soften the blurb but I don't have the time right now to cajole you into speaking the truth.

Note: Nobody is asking you to be an advocate for the Valencian language. However, you are fully representing the Catalonian perspective and making light of or significantly misrepresenting the Valencian one and this is simply bad reporting on your part. In the name, not of the Valencian people, but of the truth--could you please present both sides of the issue? And if you are unable to, out of sheer ignorance of the Valencian posture, then could you please let someone else write that section and respect its legitimacy?

Remember, NOT IN LIEU OF YOUR WRITING, BUT ACCOMPANYING IT.

Anything else would be a lie on your part and it better weigh on your conscience. Simplement es ho que mosatros volem.

Why do you use a definition like this?

According the Diccionari de l'Institut d'Estudis Catalans and the Acadèmia Valenciana de la Llengua, Valencian is the name of the Catalan language which is spoken in the Autonomous Community of Valencia, Spain.

It is completely false and partial.

1.- The Academia valenciana de la Llengua does not say anywhere that Valencian is the name of the catalan language in Valencia. It is completely false, and I suspect it is a deliberate lie. Take a look of this: http://www.gva.es/cidaj/cas/c-normas/7-1998.htm It is the law of creation of the AVL. Read the prologue carefully. Tell me : Where does it say that Valenciano is a variant of Catalan? Where?.

Heare: El valenciano, idioma histórico y propio de la Comunidad Valenciana, forma parte del sistema lingüístico que los correspondientes Estatutos de autonomía de los territorios hispánicos de la antigua Corona de Aragón, reconocen como lengua propia. They say that is the same language without say catalan (tabú). There isn't another interpretation. I can't undersant how you can try of change the interpretation of this sentence saying that AVL want the language division if in an other sentence you've said that AVL is a "catalanist" organization. You don't use the rules of AVL you use other unofficial rules that you linked in the Spanish version in "External links". Llull 14:27, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

No Llull. This is not the only interpretation. This is your interpretation. You will have to abide strictly by what is written, and forget here your personal connotations. At your home you can interpret whatever you want, but not in a public forum. You talk about tabooes and other subjective things, and your interpretation is subjective too. The AVL worked during months in finding some words that would not provocate a civil war in Valencia. They are ambivalent, just as the most of the political words are everywere.

I have not said that the AVL is a catalanist institution. Do not misinterpret me. I have said that the AVL is a very catalanized institution. I hope you will understand the differences. The AVL has been a compromise solution, and its creation gave us a period of peace, mostly due to its prologue. After that, the regulation it adopted has proved to be very catalanist in my opinión, and in the opinion of very many too. And in Valencia, people are very angry with this, though you cand find in the towns and villages people very happy with it. Al least people are not at the moment fighting with sticks and chains, but in the past this risk became very high. In any case I personally defend a regulation purely valencian, and champion this cause, but I cannot justificate violence, even for a cause like this. The valencians are patient and gentle, (like our climate). They know how to withstand. They are descendants of the phoenicians, and they can say "yes" to all and play along with you during some time, mostly in order to shell you somethig, but they will not marry you. One day you will become tired of this.--Wikiküntscher 21:45, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

2.- Why in heaven do you accept as valid the definition of the Institut d'estudis Catalans about Valenciano?. It is like using the servian definition of the croatian language. It is like using a wolf's definition for a sheep. He will say: "A sheep is a good meal".

If you do not change this definition shortly and use a more impartial one i will recurre to the community portal.

--81.202.139.161 12:28, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I'll remove that data until it can be confirmed. Chameleon 12:54, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Chameleon: you can now restore the paragraph if you find it convenient (personally I also find the current version o.k.), as the Acadèmia Valencia de la Llengua has unanimously approved yesterday a very important report (dictamen) stating that the Valencian language «is also the same one shared by the Autonomous Communities of Catalonia and the Balearic Islands». Even more: «This name [Valencian] can designate the whole language which we share with the territories of the former Crown of Aragon already mentioned, as well as, in a more specific acception, the idiomatic variety that characterizes us within this same language.»

This kills any possible tendencious interpretation of the position of the AVL that could have existed until now. The obvious implication of this dictamen is that the definition by the Institut d'Estudis Catalans is, of course, also relevant: «[last acception:] Name of the Catalan language in the Autonomous Community of Valencia».

Best regards.--Periku 12:40, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

It is supposed...

This phrase is really interesting.

Maria Josep Cuenca, lecturer at the Department of Catalan Language Studies (note the name) of the University of Valencia, in her book El valencià és una llengua diferent? (ISBN 84-8131-452-8), notes that the number of people identifying with their Autonomous Community rather than with Spain is actually greater in Castile-La Mancha than in the Valencian Community. This is perhaps surprising in a region that is supposed to be one of the països catalans or Catalan countries.

A lecturer of the Catalan Language studies surprises herself by the constatation of the feelings of valencian people. The key of the question comes later: a region that is suposed to be one of the països catalans... Naturally, because It is too much supposing. first: the països catalans or catalan countries have never existed out of some romantic and ambitious heads from Barcelona. They are completely fictitious, and they are not recogniced in any text with legal validity. The catalans use this term with exasperating stubbornness, and in Valencia this is frequently seen as a provocation. The valid name is "Comunidad Valenciana", and this is the name that must be used. The other name is not serious in an enciclopaedia like this.--81.202.129.96 00:16, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Not at all, the "Paissos Catalans" issue was created by a valencian writer, in fact from Sueca. Just in the last 10 years or so Catalonia has started to recover those ideas, as you can guess, catalonia just didn't care at all about the paissos catalans issue when it was created. Anyway it is illegal and not constitutional, but catalonians use it as many times as they like without any consequence.[anon]

I've always thought it was a linguisitic name, so to say, the "countries" (in a non-nationalist sense) that use dialects of catalan. The ambition some valencians have to "erase" the pancatalanist valentians (which I assure you, do exist, and specially so in Castellò) is as exasperating as the catalan nationalist ambition to annex valencia to their separatist claims. The "surprisingly high" spanish patriotic sentiment found in valencia can be explained easily, it's simply a reaction against the "menace" certain media or political factions have presented from Catalan culture, in order to obtain electoral gain. Sirstrahd 00:25, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Embarassing

Many of you should be ashamed of yourselves. It appalls me to see that you aren't. What we are witnessing here is a blatant misrepresentation of the truth by cowards. The proper way to handle the discussion of Valencian-Catalan would be to present the following:

JUST THE FACTS as writ in the statute of the Comunitat Valenciana (in the dryest terms possible, ie. "the denomination of the language spoken in the Comunidad Valenciana alongside with Castilian (Spanish)".

and THEN

Present the main arguments made by EACH FACTION in a UN-BIASED MANNER, without falling into polarizations. The report must be apolitical, though it is presenting political material. This is not a venue for editorial column writing, but rather for a delivery and acknowledgement of the circumstances, NOT A SWEEPING JUDGEMENT OF THEM. Your reports should NOT discredit any of the camps and if you were to err on the side of interpretation, it should be equitable, presenting each side AS IF THOUGH YOU WERE AN ADVOCATE OF THAT SIDE, if anything. This is in case objectivity escapes you. THESE ARE BASIC AND FUNDAMENTAL TENETS OF JOURNALISM AND PUBLICATION.

Remember,

The object here is NEUTRALITY.

This is NOT being achieved and those of you running this are an unmitigated disaster that offends the very principles of this encyclopedia.

Is it so hard to do an honest job? Because thus far you have been failing scandalously.

So, if I was to claim the moon is green, it should be mentioned in the moon wiki? I'm pretty sure the article includes a reference to the valentian estatut's claim. But since this is a LANGUAGE discussion, you should provide LINGUISTIC arguments, not POLITICAL or LEGAL ones. Sirstrahd 00:34, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Calm down dude. The facts are presented here. Philology experts clearly clasify valencian as part of catalan. That´s just a fact. No need to get so hyped up about it. 81.202.96.146 01:25, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Information doesn't change when the language changes

I will not enter a silly "revert" dispute here. Nonetheless, it does not stand to any sort of logic why the valid debates that are taking place in the Spanish-language form of Wikipedia cannot be held true here in English as well. Knowledge and information do not suddenly change, gain or lose value when the language changes. Water is H20 no matter what language you want to say that in, and the debates over on the .es version are PERFECTLY TRANSLATABLE here. Please notice, Periku, that I selected "neutrality" on purpose, for the factual inaccuracy is a SYMPTOM of the dubious neutrality I saw fit to denounce so thus we can understand the motive and root of this problem. The English-language Wikipedia does not accurately present the Valencian conflict and its point of view is IMMEDIATELY discernible. Quite frankly I believe this point is undisputable. There have been several attempts to present alternative points of view and combine them, in-tandem, with the undeniably one-sided, partial perspective that is currently writ. I won't insult your intelligence and I'll expect that you won't insult mine and that we can compromise here--if a unanimously appealing position on the Valencian language is not possible, than at the very least the innocent readers who visit this page may visit a true representation of ideas. Somebody who refuses to let the world hear legitimately differing points of view is only showing that they are afraid and have something to hide. I would appreciate some maturity from you. Salut! Latinoeuropa 06:53, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

If you think that the debate in es:Idioma valenciano is translatable here, then please translate. Which are the factual inaccuracies (symptomatic of POV or not), also present in this article? Please provide references.--Periku 23:45, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The refusal to include, for example, the Real Acadèmia de Cultura Valenciana as one of the external links of the Valencian language (and to boot, include the Institut d´Estudis Catalans), the refusal to mention the Normes del Puig, the refusal to present even the slightest semblance of a Valencian language perspective are, I believe, hihgly symptomatic of a lack of neutrality here. You lie, and you know it. Latinoeuropa 04:53, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Your insults are not appreciated here: please read Wikipedia:Wikipetiquette. You appear not to mention anymore your previous argument that this article should be marked as {{POV}} because the corresponding Spanish version was marked as {{disputed}}, and now focus on the Real Acadèmia de Cultura Valenciana/Normes del Puig minor issue.

I agree with you on the bias of the person who wrote the reference to Lo Rat Penat instead of the Real Acadèmia de Cultura Valenciana but, ironically, the responsible of this change (made during a period in which the article was redirected to Valencian dialect) was an enthusiastic champion of the Valencian as an independent language, as you can easily check here. S/he was most likely a supporter of the "original" Normes del Puig without accents and regarded supporters of the Real Acadèmia de Cultura Valenciana as traitors for having made the written form (since July 2003) visually much closer to the official normative of the AVL/IEC through the reintroduction of accents. Refs: [1], [2]. As the website of Lo Rat Penat appears to be written without accents, this person may have believed, understandably but mistakenly, that Lo Rat Penat defends the normative without accents.

You may edit that specific paragraph that mentions Lo Rat Penat at your convenience, but please reflect both sides of this pro-/anti-accents dispute and provide links to both sites http://www.racv.es and http://www.llenguavalencianasi.com, emphasizing the fact that they champion two different unofficial normatives.--Periku 11:08, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

You either have a problem understanding English (a minor problem, corrected with practice and wit) or you have a serious problem understanding concepts, which is explained only by obtuse mental disposition or unwillingness to understand. Anyhow, I expect that you re-read everything written above by Latinoeuropa and try to understand exactly what the position is. Salut.

- - MINOR EDIT***

Keeping with what Periku agreed above, the accent controversy has been mentioned, and links have been provided to the relevant organizations. The unofficial nature of these organizations has been duly mentioned, and without disputing "unity" within the language as a whole (ie. Valencian and Catalan are same language with different names), it has also stressed some of the local features which, I believe, reflect Valencian´s true character without threatening Catalan.

Use of the term "valencià"

The use of the term "valencià" to refer to the variety of catalan spoken in the Pais Valencià, DOES NOT denote the idea that the two are different languages, as the article states. The term "valencia" has been used throughout Valencia´s history to refer to the variety of Catalan spoken in this land, and people (writers and such) have been quite aware it´s the same language spoken in Catalonia. Thus, the use of a different name is just a tradition, not any statement of difference between "catalan" and "valencià". I myself don´t believe they are different languages but when i refer to the language i use the term "valencià" if I´m in Valencia.Violenciafriki 14:07, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

Read the article again. — Chameleon 18:36, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree with the information given in the article, as it´s clearly objective. Many valencian separatists ("blaveros" as they are known here in Valencia) cling to the "different name" issue to try to claim they are different languages, so I just wanted to point it´s a fallacy. Unity of the catalan language has been an accepted fact in the history of Valencia, Balears and Catalonia throughout it´s history. The current situation of conflict is due to political interests. Most "blaveros" tend to resort to phallacies or ad hominem, when not to downright vandalism (see edits made by them where they just delete everything and write in spanish or valencian some nonsense). This is a clear indication that they lack rational arguments to sustain their position. Violenciafriki 16:09, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

The information you've read was vandalized repeatedly by an anonymous user. I have had to restore a lot of information lost since early October from the history, and I also added more info from the Spanish Wikipedia. --Joanot Martorell ✉ 23:01, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Moved from main article page

Where is your evidence Valencian "is" Catalan?

Please, if you can, provide evidence and references for the "consensus amongst linguists" that Valencian is a Catalan language.

It is actually a different language. The words are different.

Acadèmia Valenciana de la Llengua - what official capacity does this organisation have?

By Quarrydude per this edit. --Keitei (talk) 08:08, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Well it does have a lot, in fact it's pretty much the only one that has any, at least until mr. Camps decides to change this. These darn linguists just keep getting in the way of politics.Sirstrahd 00:41, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Dispute / Merge

Pasted from Talk:Catalan_(language):

This is one of the most disputed pages I've run across in months. The issue of whether Catalan and Valencian are the same or are two variants of a "Catalan-Valencian" (cf. Portugese-Galician) is entirely unsettled. Or more accurately I should say unsettled here - no one is citing references on this topic, and this entire Talk page was virtually unusable until I restructured it, because it was filled with pages and pages of ad-hominem and political flamewars, largely relating in one way or another to this issue. I somehow doubt that linguists and the reference works they have published are in anywhere near as much confusion and disagreement on this issue as the posters on this Talk page and editors of this Article are. Hit the books, cite the facts, cite the prevailing theories, and end the dispute. So, I'm flagging this with a Disputed template, and doing the same over at Valencian (language). If the dispute is resolved on the side of them being the same language, then the very first thing that should happen is a Merge template should be added to both, and folks who care to edit these articles in depth need to work together on a combined version, and redirect things appropriately. Or something along those lines. Perhaps there should instead be a large article on Catalan-Valencian or Valencian-Catalan, and smaller articles on each of them separately that go into what makes the (alleged) dialects different from each other. I'm not even going to touch the question whether Catalan is really a dialect of Occitan!! The fact that that possibility has been raised here, with some fervor, is more than sufficient evidence that the facts of this article are truly disputed.

While the Valencian_language talk page is less flamey, the dispute is even more active here. It's virtually the only thing under discussion. — SMcCandlish [talk] [contrib] ツ 17:29, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I had previously responded here, but have moved my comments to Talk:Catalan language#Dispute / Merge. Let's keep the conversation in one place. - Jmabel | Talk 06:49, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I am removing the tag since there hasn't been any dispute in ages and the link section does cite valid references. If you consider this is a bad move, please say so! Sputnikpanicpuppet 18:06, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Re-edited

I have reorganised the text regarding the political debate/theories of origin. It has been split into 3 sections. The 1st regarding the question of whether valencian is a language, indicating that prevailing academic opinion is that it isnt, but including valid information regarding the Valencian people's seperate history and origins. The 2nd details the theories contradicting this. The 3rd explains a little regarding the political debate in Spain around this question.

I had to split the sections for coherence, and I feel this division reflects the ideas which were in the original article, but puts them in a more structured form. I had to rewrite the lot for NPOV and Spanglish, but all the ideas that were there before are included. The only things that have been cut are political statements accusing proponents of Valencian as a language of being "extreme right" (NPOV, and not true. Some are but others are moderate right or even economically left wing), and a statement that the "paisos catalans" have never existed and aren't real. While it's true no nation of that name has ever existed it is irrelevent to this article, and is an arguable point given the medieval extent of the crown of Aragon.

Please read the whole article before editing, and think where the best place to put your edit is, and keep it NPOV.

User:Boynamedsue 060906

Regarding your two points: Most are from the Right, even if not from the extreme right, and a lot of them don't even use the language: they're just motivated by politically induced hatred to anything catalan. The paisos catalans never existed, but that has nothing to do with the language discussion itself, so it pretty much shouldn't even be mentioned.Sirstrahd 00:46, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Valencian or Catalan?

On May 2006 The Spanish Supreme Court recognises that Catalan and Valencian are the same language [3]. Aotearoa from Poland 10:24, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

What evidence you dumb catalanist? valencian was the FIRST ROMANCE LITERARY LANGUAGE, AND IT COMES FROM LATIN, JUST AS CATALAN DOES, NOT ONE FROM THE OTHER.

WHY IS IT SO DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND THAT THEY ARE SISTER TONGUES, BUT NOT ONE COMES FROM THE OTHER. THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS.

http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=cat Toniher 15:25, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I would just like to state that I am an American living in Barcelona. I speak Catalan and Castilian. I do not speak Valencian, the same way that I do not speak Andalusian. I have a lot more difficult of a time understanding Andalusians or Argentines when speaking in Castilian than I do when speaking Catalan with Valencians. I understand Valencian perfectly. What I find interesting is that Anti-Catalans in Valencia use Joanot Martorell and Ausiàs March as evidence that Valencian is different from Catalan, yet... if one compares texts from Catalonia, Valencia and the Balearic Islands from those same time periods, they will discover that the language was surprisingly homogenous with a strong literary homogeneity uncommon during the middle ages when linguistic academies did not yet exist. Another subject I find extremely interesting is the Catalan spoken in the tiny port village of Alghero in Sardinia. This village has by far, the most unique and different "Catalan" from all around the "Catalan speaking Countries", yet they have no problem admitting that their language is Catalan.Xikket 16:17, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

"An American living in Barcelona." That says it all. You mix two arguments; on the one hand, you use the principle of mutual intelligibility, and on the other, you use your own amateur consideration of historical and literary comparison. Your difficulties understanding Argentine Spanish or Andalusian Spanish are surprising, because their differences with the Spanish spoken in Spain are mostly phonological and somewhat lexical (Argentine Spanish also having some allomorphic differences by using "vos" as opposed to "tú"). Of course, if you're any good at Spanish at all, you should already know this. The differences between Valencian and Catalan are phonologically more expansive, yet with a lot more morphology and lexicon involved, too--and at the organic level. I, for one, can switch from Valencian to Catalan at will, and very often have to when Catalans don't understand what I'm saying when using Valencian. The curious thing is that I believe it's the same language, just a dialect chain with some variation--I also believe the dialect chain begins in Provençal France and as such there is no point in calling it Catalan; let us each call it what we always have and if we understand each other, too, then that's an added plus. If many Catalans have a hard time understanding authentic Valencian (and not that glop that Canal "Noi" and the official institutions use), I highly doubt that you, an indoctrinated American who has a hard time understanding Argentines and Andalusians, can "understand Valencian perfectly." You contradict your own mutual intelligibility assertion by mentioning Alghero. You can give us your first-hand account of your experiences there, if you wish, though I would almost gather that considering the vehemence with which you defend Pan-Catalanism, you would've jumped at the opportunity to cite your experiences there already, had you had them. Curiously enough, a lot of Catalan nationalists stuff their mouths with the so-called wide domain their Catalan language has, but usually have never bothered to visit these places, and when they do, they're often shocked. I must admit I haven't been to that romantic little village, but my grandfather has and he tried to speak Valencian there--I RES, NO HO PARLA NI DEU. QUATRE GATS--I VELLS, ADEMÉS. Don't get me wrong: they can revive nostalgia for an ancestral language as much as they wish. After all, they've had a tradition of referring to that part of their speech as Catalan. Valencians, ta-dá, don't, and haven't for over 600 years. Finally, please consider that mutual intelligibility between Catalan and Valencian has actually heightened since Catalans became bilingual--Valencian shares a lot of features with Castilian that would've been harder to understand for a pure Catalan monolingual who wasn't used to hearing Castilian. As for your amateur historical interpretations--any guess as to how homogenous languages were in the 14th century? Castilian still used "aqestos" as a demonstrative instead of "estos"! No wonder some enlightened buffoons actually claim Castilian sprung from Catalan! The differences between languages, as a whole, in those days, were smaller than today. We've had 6 more centuries of separation to cement these differences--until, mind you, you Anglos came into power during the Information Age and have begun to pollute everyone else's speech. Still, credit to you: good timing. There is still NO credible explanation (coming from your Catalan camp) as to why the classic authors chose to refer to their language as "Valencian" if, according to you, the differences between speeches (negligible today) were even more insignificant in their time. What? "That is how the language was referred to as a whole at that time, due to Valencia's cultural and agricultural importance"? Are you serious? Give me a break. That's what your cohorts are saying. Additionally, if referring to the language as Valencian has been all jolly good for an ungodly amount of time, and still doesn't impede a multi-culti, world-travelling American luminary such as yourself from asserting he understands Valencian perfectly; why on Earth do we suddenly have to change it to "Catalan"? Why does it offend those fellows in your town so much when we continue our tradition? Frankly, we all understand each other fairly well, so there are NO LINGUISTIC MOTIVES FOR IT. The real explanation, pure and simple, is that Valencia is a piece of meat that Catalans desperately want to take over--like they've almost done with the Balearic islands.

Hi, troll. You've put yourself in evidence by saying "no HO parla ni Déu". If you're talking about "EL català", then it is "no EL parla". Thank God it's easy to catch up a blaverist due to their poor knowledge of Valencian/Catalan... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.166.167.79 (talk) 12:02, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Just nitpicking, as usual with pronominal subtitutions, you need to read minds to assert something. I mean: if he thought about "allò" or "aquesta llengua que blablabla" or another periphrasis, then "no HO parla ni Déu" is correct. Patillotes (talk) 22:31, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Valencians are not catalonians. Why do you not respect that? Valencia has got his own history, literature, culture, traditions, and so on. "Catalan countries" is a political invention of nationalists. There have not been any conflict between Catalonia and Valencia along the History, because catalonians have always respected valencians, but in the XX century they have started to appropriate the valencian culture. We only want our identity, history and culture to be respected. We are valencians and spaniards, not catalonians.

_____________________

as stated above, the supreme court of spain has acorded that "valencian" is catalan. it has not acorded that valencians are catalans - which is a wholely different issue. in any case the use of valencian in English is somewhat bizarre: its name in English is Catalan and has been for some time. Valencian means nothing to the average English speaker, and this article does not clearly state that we are talking about a dialect of catalan. only spanish and catalan use these two names interchangeably, and even then, colloquially: scientifically, they speak about the Valencian Dialect of Catalan. The most correct method is, starting from the abovementioned court case and taking in the relevant authorities (Institut d'Estudis Catalans, Acadèmia Valenciana de la Llengua), we should use the word valencian to imply 1) a person from valencia 2) as an adjective, things relative to valencia 3) the football team 4)a southern dialect of catalan.

__________________

It is absurd to say that "valencian means nothing". Valencian people have always called their own language "valencian". If you think that catalan and valencian are the same language, at least, for respect to valencians, call it catalan-valencian-balear, the name given by linguists along the XX century, including the Ethnologue (in English). The Acadèmia Valenciana de la Llengua says that valencian and catalan are the same language, it does not say that valencian is a dialect of catalan. Catalan and valencian are historic dialects of the Provencal language, with a parallel evolution (from the XIII century), not one from another. We have our history, culture, traditions and political organizations. Please, we only want all this to be respected. Do not let the valencian culture to be appropriated by catalonian annexionists. We do not do anything of this with them, then why are not we respected?

"but in the XX century they have started to appropriate the valencian culture", "Do not let the valencian culture to be appropriated by catalonian annexionists". You speak really funny as many pseudo-blaverists (or I think so) do. Culture is not a thing, is not a property. If you love valencian culture and the valencian language (or whatever you call it) you should be happy to SHARE them, FEED them, SPREAD them. You also should let them grow and let them gently penetrate other cultures and languages, which is the way the greatest cultures and languages keep themselves alive. What I think these pseudoblaverist (or whatever they are) want is: 1. Claim that catalan and valencian are different languages 2. Then, catalan should be (?) weeker and weeker and die soon 3. KILL valencian language (they don't even use) 4. Let the spanish empire (freed from its worst nightmare) conquer the world I found out that most of the most dangerous people I met thought that someone (their political enemies) "stole" some particular culture or the whole culture. They didn't want them to "have" this culture... Someone once said culture is of everyone. FALSE. Culture is of everyone who just want it and get it. Culture can't get "STOLEN". To steal is to take away from someone something and then keep it for yourself. So, it is impossible to STEAL culture. You can GET it, or DESTROY it. Not STEAL it. I don't know what you mean with "appropriate"... I try this assumption: you don't want those (dangerous?) "catalonian annexionists" (so dangerous that even having lived in BCN for 7 years I NEVER heard about these secret annexionists... they should be very powerful to keep the annexion plan so secret!) to "get" valencian culture and language (perhaps because you're a spanish nationalist, are you?) so you claim they "steal" your(?) culture. If you don't want someone to "steal" (not "destroy") your culture or "the" culture, you don't want him to GET it. So, you're AGANIST culture. More: since now, I will treat everyone who speak about "stealing" culture as what he is: a person who hate culture and hate freedom. --93.148.174.100 (talk) 19:48, 30 July 2008 (UTC)MonamiPierrot, from Italian Wikipedia.

____________________________________

You are a good example fo the result of catalan nationalist anti-spanish propaganda. You insult and lie (that we are against culture, aganist catalan language and so on) a person taht wants the valencian culture to be respected and not converted in "catalan" culture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.79.86.158 (talk) 13:11, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Another Blaverist insult

I just undid anon user 86.153.26.53 who removed the previous section and wrote this:

THIS IS HILARIOUS. SO VALENCIAN LANGUAGE HAD ITS OWN "GOLDEN CENTURY" AND WAS THE FIRST LITERARY ROMANCE LANGUAGE, AND HERE THERE ARE SOME IDIOTS DISCUSSING WHETHER IT IS A DIALECT OF CATALAN?????? REALLY PATHETIC AND INSULTING

--Casaforra (parlem-ne) 07:19, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, really pathetic and insulting, unlike some clueless guy yelling in capslock and trying to pervert LINGUISTIC facts. :) 81.202.76.215 14:04, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

On October 5th and 6th, the anon IP 84.126.202.106 has posted twice a text here with the blaverist a-scientifical reasons to promote language secessionism of Valencian from Catalan. I've reverted twice his editions because

1- English Wikipedia is the wikipedia in English, and his posts were in Spanish.
2- Wikipedia is not a forum. We are not here to chit chat and/or try to convince each other, but to explain what scholars say.
And 3 - Linguistics and Romance languages scholars all around the world agree that Valencian is part of the Catalan language. If that anon has some new fact that proves his theory I'd suggest him to go to the universities, show it in order to change their minds so that their re-write all the handbooks. Until then, and talking in linguistical terms, Valencian is Catalan-> --Casaforra (parlem-ne) 13:37, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Merge

it seems that Valencian and Catalan are dialects of same language. so they should be merged. it is misleading, people like me at first think there are two languages which is false. you can merge them and then explain that this language has different dialects. (Tahmasp) 15:30, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I support this point of view. As far as I know, entities with two (or more) different names have just one entry in Wikipedia, where each of the possible names is redirected. Why this is not the case here? I know there has been some controversy (although just in some parts of valencian society and never in the academic world) about the nature of valencian, but this (minoritary) viewpoint would be also taken into account in the merged entry, to keep it balanced and comprehensive. Otherwise, as you can see, having two separate articles is just misleading. --Cnoguera (talk) 15:47, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Not such a good idea. Think of how huge the Catalan article would get if all its dialects -especially this one- had to be fit in there. It would just get out of hand.

Besides, and more important than that, Valencian has its own distinctive features, institutions and, of course, controversy, which deserve specific treatment.

I appreciate your concern as a good faith one, but, if you re-read the article, you will realize that there's absolutely no way that anyone would think that this is a separate language from Catalan.

That is why the blaverists bite here after all, not in Catalan language, dont you think? ;) Mountolive _{all over Battersea, some hope and some dispair} 22:38, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Maybe you are right, Mountolive, since you have been here longer and probably know better than me how controversial the issue can be. But still the merging seems quite plausible and feasible to me. It would not be such a huge article, not bigger than many other Wikipedia entries, since many parts of both articles are actually more or less duplicated. Is there any Wikipedia policy about entities with two different names? --Cnoguera (talk) 08:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Per favor in a song from Catalonia

In a song by La Troba Kung-Fú there's this line: "Calor calor, que em falta calor! Acosta´t una mica per favor!".

This page says that "per favor" is characteristic for Valencian. If i understand correctly, the singer of that band is from Catalonia. Then why does he sing "per favor"?

Does it mean that it's normal to say "per favor" in Catalonia too? Or is he trying to sound Valencian in that song?

(You can hear the song at the band's website; it's the first MP3 link.) --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 07:32, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi, Amire. 'Per favor' is a usual expression in all catalan dialects, not exclusive from dialects spoken in Valencia. I guess that it is written in the article as something specific just because in the latter it is much more usual than the equivalent 'si us plau', widely used elsewhere. --Cnoguera (talk) 13:07, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Periku

A comment from a hidden comment in the article, that belongs on the talk page: --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 12:11, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Name used by the Ethnologue, whose classification is the one used across Wikipedia. Although the most frequent scientific denomination is, by far, the one of Catalan, this the most spread syncretic denomination in the academic world. Josep Calveras used it for the first time in 1925, in his work La reconstrucció del llenguatge literari català: «"Catalan-Valencian-Balear" would be the proper name that would satisfy everyone, if it were not because it is too long and the philologists are used to say briefly: Catalan language». The official dictionary of the Institut d'Estudis Catalans has the title Diccionari Català-valencià-balear.--Periku 10:04, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Contradictions with Catalan language

There are a number of contradictions between these two articles. I am going to start clearing up the easy ones. But I will probably have to list some here for more knowledgable people to work out.--BirgitteSB 21:20, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

I am not sure what is the difference between these maps that one might be incorrect and not the other. But any differences make the articles contradict one another. I personally thought the information on the maps was equivalent but just written in different languages which is why I changed the Catalan article to use the English language map. I asked the uploader on Commons for sources--BirgitteSB 16:56, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

I have edited the Catalan language article to prevent the apparent contradictions. I propose to use the green dialectal map in both cases (it is in English) and I have also added the missing ISO code. Please let me know whether you agree with this and whether some contradictions still remain. Thanks! --Carles Noguera (talk) 14:13, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

I've tagged that image as obsolete. It's also unsourced and is of relatively poor quality compared to the map that's used here as well as a similar map used at Catalan phonology. — Æµ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 20:24, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, the most important issue here was to use the same map everywhere. If you have found out that this one is better sourced, then it is fine with me (but it has still the drawback of not being in English; could anyone translate it?). Any other contradictions or can we remove the tag? --Carles Noguera (talk) 07:33, 1 April 2009 (UTC)