Talk:Uwe Dassler

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Daßler

Can't we have normal spelling - Dassler - or atleast some guide to the right pronounciation here ? Tintin (talk) 18:48, 13 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 10 March 2015: from Uwe Daßler to Uwe Dassler

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved. Athletes who are accented in their country of origin are subject to some fairly well-known practices here, which I won't go into. Wikipedia is more friendly to allowing diacritics in the names of article subjects than it used to be. Esszett is a little different but the issues are subtle enough that I see no established guideline to require it here. We might as well go with the majority, who prefer 'ss'. There wasn't a good refutation of those who asserted that usage of 'ss' follows WP:COMMONNAME. The strongest argument for the esszett was probably that of User:In ictu oculi who implicitly mentioned Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English)#No established usage in English-language sources. Nonetheless with 28,000 Google hits this swimmer is not exactly unknown in English-speaking countries. By deciding to drop the esszett we are leaving behind our confreres in the French, Spanish and Dutch Wikipedias, who continue to use the esszett in Uwe Daßler's name. The argument that esszett is not a character in the English alphabet does not decide the issue given the wording of our guidelines. The letter ü is not a character in the English alphabet either, but we use it in article titles. EdJohnston (talk) 18:44, 18 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

{{requested move/dated|Uwe Dassler}}

Uwe Daßler → Uwe Dassler – The eszett is a German alphabet character that does not exist in the 26-character English alphabet; the eszett is not a diacritical mark per WP:DIACRITICS, but an entirely separate letter signifying the sharp "double s" sound in the German language. The precedent has already been set with German swimmer Michael Gross, whose name is spelled with the eszett in German, but is correctly spelled with a simple double s in the English language. Please see previous discussion at Talk:Michael Gross (swimmer). Thanks. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:16, 10 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - It's somebody's surname. If this is how the person spells it, than I don't see why we would change it to an alternate spelling they don't use. I am Germam, and personally, Daßler seems fine for English Wikipedia. CookieMonster755 (talk) 00:44, 11 March 2015 (UTC) [reply]

The eszett is not an English language character; rather than a double "s" or "sz", the character most closely resembles a capital "B" or the Greek letter beta (β). The eszett is not recognized nor its meaning understood by the overwhelming majority of English-language readers. In that regard, it is no different than Cyrillic/Greek or Hebrew alphabet characters that we likewise do not use in English language publications. The double "s" is the standard spelling of all such usages in English. Tellingly, nothing that resembles the eszett appears on QWERTY keyboards. This is not a simple case of diacritical marks on a standard Latin alphabet letter. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 02:20, 11 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support per Dirtlawyer1. CookieMonster755 (talk) 03:03, 11 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support - it doesn't appear that that's an English letter. Red Slash 01:42, 11 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support the eszett isn't even necessary in German, there being dialects of German that dispensed with it. -- 65.94.43.89 (talk) 05:06, 11 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - without any exceptive reasoning no immediate reason why weak but status quo previous project consensus at WP:ß shouldn't hold. This swimmer is barely mentioned in English sources which puts him in the referral to native language sources category (please see guideline small print folks) slightly different from the dropping of ß in most but not all English sources for recent swimmer Michael Groß; btw User:CookieMonster755 Historical Dictionary of the Olympic Movement ed. Bill Mallon, ‎Jeroen Heijmans 2011 Page 145 does in fact use the eszett for Michael Groß. In ictu oculi (talk) 05:29, 11 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - Your comment leaves the mis-impression that there is some sort of split among English language sources as to the spelling of Dassler, when, in fact, virtually all English language sources spell the name without the eszett. Here are 46 contemporary newspaper accounts, all spelled without the eszett: [1]. How could it be otherwise? Very few English language newspapers and magazines use the character. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 11:36, 11 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"why weak but status quo previous project consensus at WP:ß shouldn't hold." In ictu oculi, I see no "consensus" in the linked discussion regarding the eszett; I see a list of English language sources wherein the majority do not use the eszett. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 11:44, 11 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support - I dispute the assertion that we should move this because ß is not a character in the English alphabet. It's really a sort of ligature, a shorthand for the ss. In this regard it is no different from the æ letter, which is a Latin ligature (but specifically not an English letter), and is used in, for example, Encyclopædia Britannica. However, having said that, I do have to reluctantly support the move proposal, because, as Dirtlawyer1 points out, unlike "Encyclopædia Britannica" there are virtually no English language sources that refer to "Uwe Daßler". WP:COMMONNAME is king here. — Amakuru (talk) 10:10, 18 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Preserve ß in WP:FULLNAME

Whatever happens to the title the first line of the lead should continue to give the full and accurate German name. In ictu oculi (talk) 05:38, 11 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely. And this is exactly what was done in the Michael Gross (swimmer) article. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 11:37, 11 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I note your edit here, reversing the English and German spellings in the lead: [2]. While I have no particular objection to that, I see no guidance in WP:FULLNAME that supports your particular edit. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 12:31, 11 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Well, perhaps it should be added to WP:FULLNAME explicitly, but it is implicit, and practiced. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:50, 18 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I also agree Red Slash 22:54, 11 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Post-move comment - Both German and English spellings have been incorporated into the article's lead, infobox and persondata, and a redirect using the eszett spelling also exists. We're not going to lose this guy because someone searches using an eszett in their search terms. I also note that Dassler himself sometimes uses the "double s" spelling of his name, including his own German-language website (http://www.dassler.net/). Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 19:13, 18 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]