Talk:Ute people/Archive 1

Archive 1

Title

Why is "Tribe" capitalized?--Rockero 01:55, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I changed it. — Omegatron 15:40, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment on piezoelectricity

1) Piezoelectricity has been observed by the greeks, who noticed that a heated piece of quartz attracts ashes.

2) Triboluminescence is the physics effect that explains the light emitted by Utes rattles filled with quartz crystals rather than piezoelectricity. I changed the explaination in my french translation of the article[1]. Charele 14:16, 23 July 2006 (UTC) Charles@Hirlimann.net]]

Do you mean pyroelectricity? — Omegatron 04:52, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

• Triboluminescence is caused by electrical discharges from breaking crystal bonds, or cracks in the crystal.
• Piezoelectric flashes are caused by electrical discharges from deformation of the crystal and the production of large voltages, without breaking anything.

I know quartz is piezoelectric. I don't know if it also produces triboelectric flashes. I don't know which is causing the effect in this case, if not both, but people continue to change it without providing any references. Please provide an (authoritative) reference for the cause of the effect before changing it again. — Omegatron 22:46, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

---

Moved from User:Deglr6328:

Why do you think the quartz rattles are triboluminescence? — Omegatron 22:40, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Cuz its light created by charge asymmetry separation upon crystal fracture. I suppose VEEERY strictly speaking its "fractoluminescence" but nearly no one ever uses that term. Some materials are only piezoelectric, some are only triboluminescent, some are both and many are neither. [2] [3].--Deglr6328 22:48, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

And you were there to witness the crystals fracturing? Electrical discharges can be created by deforming piezoelectric materials without fracturing them, too. Talk:Ute_Tribe#Comment on piezoelectricity — Omegatron 08:32, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

wha? I don't know what you mean. Triboluminescence of SiO2 crystal fracture is well well known. you can buy a little kit from edmund scientific for like 5 bucks or something that includes a pair of quartz rocks that emit lots of light when rubbed against eachother. tribo=rubbing luminescence=light emitting. My first refrence link above discusses in detail the spectra and mechanisms of triboluminescence in crystalline quartz. --Deglr6328 09:26, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I had one of those as a kid. It was described as a piezoelectric effect. [4] [5] [6] [7] — Omegatron 16:26, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, I really don't know what else I can say. There are several peer reviewed sources attributing the effect specifically to triboluminescence...here's some more [8] [9]. I think the fact that silica exhibits both a piezoelectric effect and triboluminescence accounts for the common public confusion between the phenomena especially because the term triboluminescence is not very well known.--Deglr6328 07:09, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

After doing some more reading, it seems that several different distinct effects are involved in any kind of mechanoluminescence, some of which are caused by cracks and some that aren't. There's luminescence from piezoelectric nitrogen discharge, from elastic deformation, plastic deformation, blackbody radiation from heat at crack edges, chemical reaction and oxidation at new crack surfaces, and others? The word "triboluminescence" is used to mean a few different things, apparently.

Even one of your references says that that luminescence can be caused by piezoelectric discharge through nitrogen, which can in turn induce photoluminescence of the quartz. This is the dominant mechanism in crushing of quartz according to Triboluminescence of glasses and quartz. In Piezoluminescence from a ferroelectric polymer and quartz, they short out the surfaces of the quartz to prevent piezoelectric nitrogen discharges from affecting their measurements of luminescence caused only by elastic deformation.

I'm just going to change it to say "mechanoluminescence".  :-) — Omegatron 02:29, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

"related groups" info removed from infobox

For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 23:19, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Help with Pah-vant

I am working on the Mountain Meadows massacre article and have run across a reference to a tribal (or band) name of Pah-vant in the southwestern Utah boder area living on or near Corn Creek. They probably lived in present day Nevada as well. It appears several times in Senate Executive Document 42 of the 36th United States Congress in response to Senate requests for all the official documents relating to the Mountain Meadows massacre. Specifically on page 76 where Jacob Forney (Superintendent for Indian Affairs in Utah Territory in 1859) says:

And after strict inquiry I cannot learn that even one Pah-vant Indian was present at the massacre.

Is anyone familiar with this name and what it corresponds to as far as tribal affiliations? Is it a band of Ute? Thanks for any help. --Robbie Giles 13:43, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Pah Vant were a subgroup of the Uinta (Muhgruhtahveeach, selfdesignation as Nuchu or Noochoo, often called Uta Utes, Unita), a tribe of the Ute, who lived in the Uintah Basin including the Great Salt Lake Basin. Further subgroups of the Uinta are:

• Cumumba (originally a band of Shoshone)
• Yoovwetuh
• Tumpanawach (Toompanawach or Tumpanuwac)
• San Pitch (Sanpeech)
• Sheberetch (Sahyehpeech)

The Uinta Utes were part of the Northern Utes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.50.56.7 (talk) 18:28, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

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Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Ute people/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

I have added pictures, text, and cultural info. I have added photos of rare museum quality objects from the Ute culture to the article --Waya sahoni (10 March 06) Quite a good article now, but is in serious need of more references (especially print references), and citations within the text. The pictures are great, but there's so many of them that it's messing with the formatting of the article and distracting from the text, so I suggest that several be removed. So things aren't quite so cluttered-looking. --Miskwito 22:53, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Substituted at 22:03, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

I can t believe you write that the reason for the Ute peoples poverty is "cultural differences" ! Also you should write a bit about the original people living in the area in the texts about Taylorsville and similar places: If you read only the text here in Wikipedia you would believe that the mormons arrived in an empty land, and that the worst massacre was ute people against settlers – no massacres settlers against natives? Hard to believe. OK the native people lost the war and their country. But please let them keep the true history and don t pretend your forefathers were saints who saw all people as equals. Toove — Preceding unsigned comment added by 51.175.228.117 (talk) 19:49, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Ute people template

Hello, I hope someone looks here every now and again. I created a template {{Ute people}}, which make kind of an outline of topics that would be nice to put on articles related to the Utes. It would be great to get input on whether there should be content additions or deletions... or different grouping or labeling of topics. There's also room to add some more topics.

Do you have any thoughts about this?–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:39, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Clean-up tag

I am going to take a stab at addressing the clean-up tag through organizations, removal of duplicate information, seeking brevity, and citing content.

I would appreciate any help along the way.–CaroleHenson (talk) 00:11, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

As an FYI, I am tidying up the information about the bands... and creating separate articles. For now, I have saved the list at Draft:Ute people/History of Bands.–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:55, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Northern Ute Tribe

I have moved this here because the content is a largely uncited block of text here - better in the Ute Indian Tribe of the Uintah and Ouray Reservation article.

Northern Ute Tribe

Main article: Ute Indian Tribe of the Uintah and Ouray Reservation The largest tribes are the Northern Ute, which live on the Uintah and Ouray Reservation in northeastern Utah. It is the largest of several groups of Ute and Shoshone Indians that were relocated to the Northern Ute Indian Reservation during the late 19th and early 20th century, including the Northern Shoshone, Uintah, Uncompahgre, White River, and Southern Ute. Some believe that the Northern Ute disfranchised the other Ute groups when they reorganized during the mid-20th century and gained control of the Uintah and Ouray Indian Reservation as a result. The people of the U & O reservation are well aware of their own ancestries. Lawsuits and litigation have been commonplace between mixed-blood Utes and the Northern Ute Tribe for rights to tribal enrollment and privileges. As a part of the federal Indian termination policy the US government partitioned the tribe in 1954 automatically classifying any tribal member with 1/2 or less blood quantum as a mixed-blood. With the repudiation of the termination policy in 1970, mixed-bloods hoped for restoration to the tribe. Since 2002, they have been seeking civil action to repeal the Ute Partition Act. Mixed-blood Utes with a lower percentage of Ute ancestry have accused the tribe of disfranchisement in terms of rights to tribal lands and equal legal treatment. Some affiliates, descendants of certain Northern Ute families who in earlier years decided against enrollment and federal recognition of their native ancestry, live on the reservation land holdings owned by particular families since the Federal government forced relocation in 1881. The Affiliate Utes have recently applied for federal recognition and are involved in litigation with the United States and the Northern Ute tribe. The Affiliates should not be confused with other mixed-blood Utes, which families did not choose to be unrecognized. Some Utes of partial descent are enrolled as Northern Utes, but are also active members of the Affiliates. Northern Utes can be found all over the world. They have learned to adapt to various societies. A northern Ute is also called Nuchu. Various bands have more complex names and each name has a meaning. Over the years the Northern Ute language has changed extensively with the combinations of different dialects and English language influences. The Northern Ute Tribe began repurchasing former tribal lands following the Indian Reorganization Act of 1934. They gained return of the 726,000-acre (2,940 km2) Hill Creek Extension by the federal government in 1948. More recent court decisions of the 1980s have granted the Northern Utes "legal jurisdiction" over three million acres (12,000 km²) of alienated reservation lands. Discoveries of oil and gas on Ute land in Utah hold the promise of increased living standards for tribal members. In 1965, the Northern Tribe agreed to allow the US Bureau of Reclamation to divert a portion of its water from the Uinta Basin (part of the Colorado River Basin) to the Great Basin. The diversion would provide water supply for the Bonneville Unit of the Central Utah Project. In exchange, the Bureau of Reclamation agreed to plan and construct the Unitah, Upalco, and Ute Indian Units of the Central Utah Project to provide storage of the tribe's water. By 1992, the Bureau of Reclamation had made little or no progress on construction of these facilities. To compensate the Tribe for the Bureau of Reclamation's failure to meet its 1965 construction obligations, Title V of the Central Utah Project Completion Act contained the Ute Indian Rights Settlement. Under the settlement, the Northern Tribe received $49.0 million for agricultural development, $28.5 million for recreation and fish and wildlife enhancement, and $195 million for economic development. References

Are there known sources for this information so that it can be merged into that article?–CaroleHenson (talk) 20:04, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Peyote, etc.

While I have no doubt that the following is true, I cannot find a reliable source for the following:

There is evidence the Ute have used peyote obtained through trade and other potent ceremonial plants used as entheogens since ancient times. Examples include the dried leaves of Larb (a species of Manzanita), tobacco sage collected from the Escalante area (a mild hallucinogen when smoked), and the potent and narcotic White Uinta water lily.

Does anyone have a reliable book, magazine, newspaper source that is not self-published? Thanks.–CaroleHenson (talk) 15:48, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Ceremonial pipes

I cannot find sources for the following:

The Northern and Uncompahgre Ute were the only group of Indians known to create ceremonial pipes out of salmon alabaster, as well as a rare black pipestone found only in the creeks that border the southeastern slopes of the Uinta Mountains in Utah and Colorado. Although Ute pipe styles are unique, they resemble the styles of their eastern neighbors from the Great Plains. The black pipestone is also used to make lethal war clubs, which warriors used to great effect from the back of a horse. The Ute have a religious aversion to handling thunderwood (wood from a tree struck by lightning) and believe that the thunder beings would strike down any Ute Indian that touched or handled such wood. This is also a Diné (Navajo) belief.

Does anyone know where there are reliable sources (books, magazines, newspapers, museums, etc.) for any of this content?–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:31, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Meaning of the term Ute

The word Ute is not! native and the origin is unclear. First, the term Yuta is found in spanish documents. At least this is what is said in T. Givóns Ute Reference Grammar on page 3. (Givón, Talmy. 2011. Ute Reference Grammar. Amsterdam: Benjamins). So the sentence "The word Ute means "people of the mountains" in their language." in the introduction can not be right.

Kolkata (talk) 21:28, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, this is really old and is no longer in the article. It may have been confusion about the Tavich or Tabeguache whose name means people of Sun Mountain, or Pikes Peak.–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:35, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Uintah-Ouray vs Ouray town

I'm confused. The town of Ouray (which is very near a Ute visitor center) is in Colorado, but the article says that the Uintah-Ouray live in Utah.202.156.70.59 (talk) 05:34, 10 May 2013 (UTC)Nick Palevsky

This is very old, but just to close the link on this, Ouray (Ute leader) was a member of the Tabeguache band. The town of Ouray, Colorado was named for him. His band was relocated to a reservation in Utah, named the Uintah and Ouray Indian Reservation.–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:37, 21 June 2018 (UTC)