Talk:University City, Philadelphia

Ghetto

Penn is adjacent to some of the worst places in Philadelphia. What angers people is the feeling that they are being pushed out of the one place they can afford to live by the haves, an Ivy league school, the University of Pennsylvania. The marketing scheme of calling the area University City is a smart one. No one wants to live in West Philly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.247.76.17 (talk) 20:03, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Boundaries

There has been much debate over the boundaries of which neighborhoods comprise University City. One editor wrote that there is "no dispute" because the "UCD [University City District] now serves up to 50th Street". Meanwhile most of the residents living west of 42nd Street have nothing to do with any of the Universities and continue to refer to their neighborhoods as "West Philly", not "University City". Therefore the boundary is in dispute. The UCD could suddenly choose to "serve" all the way up to Cobbs Creek (63rd Street) and that that still wouldn't make those neighborhoods part of University City. Morganfitzp

More on University City's Boundaries

First let me say that I am a homeowner and resident of University City, particularly Spruce Hill, and that I live between 42nd and 43rd Streets. To assert that any location west of 42nd Street is not part of University City -- but "West Philadelphia" -- is ridiculous, absurd, bogus, and laughable. "University City" gets it's name because this particular section of West Philadelphia is home to several universities: U. of Pennsylvania, Drexel U., USP (U. of the Sciences Philadelphia), the Restaurant School of Walnut Hill College, etc. USP's campus is mostly located across Clark Park between 43rd and 46th St (not part of University City???) and Walnut Hill College is centered around 44th St. A office building - the former location of Urban and Bye Realtors - is on the corner of 41st and Walnut ... there is a big sign "In the heart of University City" ... not "On the edge of University City". The neighborhoods within University are generally agreed to be Spruce Hill, Cedar Park, Walnut Hill, Garden Court and some of Powelton Village. Whereas all of University City is within West Philadelphia, not all of West Philly is University City. Noone claims Cobbs Creek, Overbrook, Angora, Wynnefield, et al are part of U.C. Anyone who lives or works between 42nd and 49th Streets from Market St. in the north to Woodland Ave in the south will tell you this is a community dominated by college students, and the retail shops catering to them: bookshops, coffee shops, restaurants, pizzarias, bars, etc. The character of the neighborhood unmistakably changes at 50th Street. Sadly, it appears poorer, more run-down, and disadvantaged as far as neighborhoods go. The contrasts with gentrification going on in U.C. Buddmar 07:02, 17 January 2007 Buddmar 03:59, 6 February 2007 (UTC)buddmar

Not a "Student Ghetto"

The "Category:Student ghettos" tag was recently placed on this article. Regardless of how often the term "Ghetto" is used in real life, ghetto is a largely negative term and it certainly violates the NPOV standard for wikipedia articles to include it here. The definition page, Student ghetto, is mostly unsourced and does not seem to represent a coherent viewpoint. Most of the page consists of examples of college towns, a much more appropriate category (if it exists) for this page.

Ucity doesn't even fit the vague definition of Student ghetto.

1. There are far more people than just students.
2. Rents and home prices are high.
3. Many students live in Center City.

Unsourced POV statements don't belong here. -- Austin Murphy 18:09, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the statements above and could have not said it better myself, this coming from someone who has lived in University City and was student when i lived their. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 18:23, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

penn development and naming controversies

(Moved from my talk page to here)

Hi, Austinmurphy. Not sure how to do this (if this is the right place), but I wanted to explain why several items you added to the article were removed. First, Penn was a commuter school for most of its history, so statements about its original arrival to the area and its being a major developer there need to explain that history more accurately -- when development happened, where, and why. Also, though Drexel and the University of the Sciences may have had long histories in the area, neither was a university at the time when the name "University City" was coined; the name referred only to the University of Pennsylvania. Next, 40th Street wasn't redeveloped in the 90s; the UCD (responsible for the redevelopment) was only formed in 1997. Additionally, the recent developments there were arguably not done with community involvment, but rather with the appearance of community involvement, so any mention of that will require a more detailed explanation of the real nature and history of that process. Finally, the "Penn Bubble" is not simply about where students feel safe, but also about the growing extent of Penn's ownership and operation of real estate, housing, and schools past 40th Street, and therefore its promotion of the area as 'more acceptable' for its student market. I hope this helps explain the complexities, and why it can be misleading to add (inadvertantly) incomplete, non-neutral, or non-contextualized details. Thanks!Wikiway (talk) 03:19, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

The Quad, a residence hall, is 100 years old. So are College Hall, Logan Hall, Houston Hall, John Morgan and probably more. Many other buildings are at least 75 years old. To say that Penn was simply a commuter school for most of its history or not a major developer just doesn't match the facts. I'm not making a value judgment to say that Penn moved to the area in 1872 and did a lot of development. Everyone agrees on that. The value judgment would be to say that it was a good or bad thing.

The previous legal status of Drexel and USP are hardly relevant to this article. There is especially no need to clutter up the lead section with that kind of detail. I can't imagine that the people who coined the name were specifically trying to exclude Drexel or USP. Despite Penn's local dominance, both are notable in their own right, and included in all definitions of the borders.

UCD is not a developer, they are a community organization that has "ambassadors" walk around to make people feel safe. Penn is the developer. The sources for my edits were the two reference links that you posted! One article talks about how Judith Rodin (Penn Prez 1994-2004) was successful in revitalizing the streetscape and the other was about the Penn Bubble where the Students don't have any worries and the poor people from West Philly that work in the redeveloped places. The 34th Street magazine article didn't mention anything about Penn's ownership and operation of real estate, housing, and schools past 40th Street. This first profile in the article was about a guy at Fresh Grocer on 40th st, which was built around 2000 or 2001 at the latest. Of course there has been development on 40th st before and after the 90s. Again, that isn't the question. It was Rodin's 1995 plan that changed the area's character.

Whether this development exclusively benefits Penn and not the community to the west is a matter to debate. I was not present at the community meetings or whatever Penn did to achieve the appearance of community involvement, so I can't say to what extent the community was ignored, but compared to the Science Center project, I can't say this was particularly disruptive.

Regardless of who got upset in this particular incident, it doesn't really matter. The point is that Penn has been making major developments in the area for a long time. Some of them were massively unpopular and have led to significant tension between Penn and the rest of the community. This is the key point that the article needs to address. Of course it is complicated. The "town and gown" section is for exactly this subject. The lead section should be a concise overview of all the subsequent sections. My edits have reflected this.

-- Austin Murphy (talk) 05:12, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, not everyone agrees with your statement about Penn "moving to the area in 1872 and doing a lot of development." Penn's history, which is well documented in Penn publications, does not support that simple claim; the evolution of Penn into the urban university it is today was anything but "moving to an area and doing a lot of development." In the 1930s and 40s Penn considered moving the campus to Valley Forge, for instance. And as the campus grew in the 50s and 60s it was done as a campus expanding in an urban setting which disappeared to accommodate it -- in such a way that by the 70s and 80s Penn realized it had created a very inward-looking university, not connecting with and often at odds with its urban surroundings. It was only in the mid-90s that this basic paradigm changed, to one of Penn actively developing its urban environment -- as an inextricable part of expanding its campus and its identity. It's a fascinating story, documented in Penn publications like the Pennsylvania Gazette (http://www.upenn.edu/gazette/0902/thomas.html) or (http://www.upenn.edu/gazette/1197/philly5.html) and it belongs perhaps in an article about Penn's history, not here.

I don't understand your position and you must not understand what I mean. I am simply laying out facts. Fact #1: Penn moved west of the Schuylkill in 1872. Fact #2: Since 1872, through the present, Penn has purchased land, built buildings, torn down buildings, closed streets, etc. This is called development and Penn did a lot of it. The two long articles you cited both include long histories about the kind of development that penn proposed and performed. There were interesting articles, but like you say, they are more relevant to a History of Penn article rather than this article. -- Austin Murphy (talk) 16:41, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Your next statement, "I can't imagine that the people who coined the name were specifically trying to exclude Drexel or USP. Despite Penn's local dominance, both are notable in their own right" is speculative and subjective. As was previously written and documented in the article, at the time the name "University City" was coined (as a marketing tool in the mid-50s by two former graduates of Penn seeking to attract Penn faculty to move to the nearby neighborhoods), Penn was the only university in the area; Drexel and USP were not universities. This has been documented in Penn's publications (http://www.upenn.edu/gazette/1197/philly3.html): "we were trying to develop a market in these big Victorian houses around the University, to encourage faculty to move back into a diversified neighborhood."

My statement was also a logical fallacy (argument from ignorance), but that only means it was a poor argument, not that it was false. Penn is obviously the most important institution in the neighborhood. I've attempted to highlight this previously (my previous edit), but this was reverted. This does not mean that the Drexel and USP are not notable. Although they had non-university legal status, they were present at the time and the original borders and all subsequent interpretations of the borders have included them. The statement, as currently written, infers that the neighborhood was a Penn-only construct. This simply was not the case. Furthermore, it is not relevant to include the previous full names of Drexel and USP and harp on their status as non-universities in the lead paragraph. Many people do not necessarily share the strict definition of the term University that you seem to be promoting. The terms College, Institute, and Academy are also loosely defined, at least in common usage. Consider the wikipedia definitions of University, College, Institute, Academy or the usage of College in Girard College. The terms are not as precise as you are suggesting. -- Austin Murphy (talk) 17:02, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Your next statements about the development of 40th Street ignore how Penn and UCD have actually developed 40th Street and when. UCD's own newsletter from 2003 explains UCD's taking on the role in developing 40th Street, transforming the perception of 40th Street as "a chasm dividing the residential community and the nearby institutions" after UCD moved into its headquarters there in 1999 (http://www.ucityphila.org/_files/pdfs/Quest_winter_03.pdf). Since that time Penn and UCD have promoted to students the idea that the area west of 40th Street (up to 43rd Street) is "safe" because the patrol areas of Penn Police extend to 43rd Street. This area is also where Penn's Campus Apartments own much of the student housing. The current student articles confirm all this, calling it the "Penn Bubble" and the 40th Street "divide" has accordingly shifted further west to 43rd Street.

Your final statement explains, all by itself, why your previously written statements about community benefit and involvement were removed from the article: "Whether this development exclusively benefits Penn and not the community to the west is a matter to debate. I was not present at the community meetings or whatever Penn did to achieve the appearance of community involvement, so I can't say to what extent the community was ignored, but compared to the Science Center project, I can't say this was particularly disruptive." -- Wikiway (talk) 09:43, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

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Origin of the name "University City"

Was Penn really "instrumental" in naming University City, as the article's intro asserts? The source in footnote 1 does not support that statement. PRRfan (talk) 16:34, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

I've added a link to support the edit. Austin Murphy (talk) 20:57, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

largest business district

I removed this pending a citation: "It is the fourth-largest business district in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, after Center City Philadelphia, Downtown Pittsburgh, and Oakland, Pittsburgh. PRRfan (talk) 20:43, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

A contested name

The first sentence of the lead defines University City as "a contested name for the easternmost region of West Philadelphia." I'm writing to contest the use here of the term "contested".

I understand the intent: the name "University City" is an artificial and relatively recent coinage, a sort of marketing effort on the part of the University of Pennsylvania. This idea certainly merits a place in the article, and probably in the lead section. But there are problems with its inclusion in this initial sentence, whose job is to outline the most essential elements of the topic of the article.

For one thing, it imposes a Carrollian shift of the topic of the entire article from University City, the place, to the name "University City". (The Mike Schmidt article, by contrast, is about "a Hall of Fame third baseman", not about "the name of a Hall of Fame third baseman".)

More to the point, it gives this idea, of the phoniness of the name "University City" undue weight. As I mentioned, it's one of the things the article should cover. But putting it in the one-sentence summary that opens the lead amounts to calling it the most important fact about University City aside from its location. It's already also covered in the second sentence of the article. That's plenty soon enough.

I suggest we change this sentence to the following:

University City is the easternmost area of West Philadelphia.

I'd like to hear what other people think about this. TypoBoy (talk) 13:15, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

@TypoBoy: University City is a contested name -- some like it and some don't. The idea of "social construction" is essential to understand naming controversies as is symbolic capital. You seem to suggest that University City is a real thing, with real boundaries, and is a real place. Well, when things are contested, things aren't that simple. No?Bellshook (talk) 01:07, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Do people confuse University City, Philadelphia with University Park, Pennsylvania?

An IP editor recently added the hat note, "Not to be confused with University Park, Pennsylvania". This does not seem to me like an improvement.

Those "not to be confused" notes are very helpful for sorting out commonly-conflated ideas. But when it's applied to things that few people actually confuse, it becomes useless verbiage, just more chaff to dilute the wheat of useful information.

Is there any indication that people confuse this Philadelphia neighborhood with that distant small town? If that ever were to happen, wouldn't the confusion pass when the first sentence mentions Philadelphia?

Does this addition really deserve its featured position? TypoBoy (talk) 17:48, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Not to be confused with University City, San Diego.

Not to be confused with University City, Missouri.

Not to be confused with University Place, Washington.

Not to be confused with The Mall at University Town Center.

Not to be confused with City College.

It's a problem for people to confuse University City with other places. But it's a small problem, and one we shouldn't solve unless we're actually having it. TypoBoy (talk) 19:24, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

I generally agree with you. I don't think there so much confusion that it needs to be resolved by a prominent note at the top of the page. At this point though, I'm not against listing the other places with similar names in the "See also" section. In other contexts, I like seeing cross-links to similar topics. --Austin Murphy (talk) 15:56, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

I agree. In the "See also" section, this sort of thing is an addition; as the very first sentence on the page, it's a distraction. It's as though somebody asked, "What's University City?" and got a response beginning, "Well, first of all, it isn't University Park, Pennsylvania. . ." TypoBoy (talk) 23:49, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

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Lenapehoking

The "Names of the region" section begins with this one-sentence paragraph:

Before the European colonization of the Americas, this area was part of the home of the Lenape people, now known as Lenapehoking.

While not, strictly speaking, false, this is statement is not only irrelevant, but misleading in the extreme. Lenapehoking (as the linked article explains) encompassed the land that today makes up not only the entire Philadelphia region, but also both banks of the Delaware River down to the bay, all of New Jersey, the western half of Long Island, the entire New York City metropolitan area, and the part of the mainland of New York State that lies south of the northern border of Pennsylvania.

Lenapehoking, in other words, has no particular connection with University City. It is equally relevant to every other neighborhood in Philadelphia; as far as I am aware, none of those discusses Lenapehoking. Including it in this article is akin to talking about the Local Group when discussing University City's location. While it's true that University City is in the Local Group, so is everything else within ten million light years. It's a fact whose addition diminishes the utility of the article. (I make this comparison with some trepidation, pleased though I am with it, because there's a decent chance somebody will edit the article to say that University City is in the Local Group.)

Not only do we mention Lenapehoking (improperly, as I note), but we support the idea with not one but two photos, along with a dead link to the City Paper site.

If this belongs in this article at all (and, again, I posit that it does not), it certainly does not belong in the "names of the region" section. Nobody, native or European, ever pointed across the Schuylkill from what is now Center City and said, "Let's go to Lenapehoking!"

We should remove all this stuff. Does anybody think otherwise? TypoBoy (talk) 18:31, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

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