Talk:United States Pony Clubs

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BetacommandBot (talk) 02:43, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

USPC corrections

Montanabw. We will continue to improve this page or ask it to be removed. It was created by a random person and the information is inaccurate. It is a copywright violation to post inaccurate information about this organization, so for the best the page should be removed if nothing else. All of the information we keep trying to post is ACCURATE and correct about the organization.

How do we go about removing this page since it looks like wikipedia is set on having inaccurate information posted on their site? — Preceding unsigned comment added by USPC2015 (talk • contribs) 18:21, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

You cannot remove the page if you are the USPC, see WP:POV and WP:INVOLVE. White Arabian mare (Neigh) 19:36, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

How about explaining what is inaccurate in the current existing text and what you would like to see improved? We are glad to work on fixing clear inaccuracies, and a new user in fact did a bit of work that we cleaned up and expanded a bit further. But we can't take a blatent, unattributed copy-and-paste off the web site of the USPC because the USPC has copyrighted its contents; (please read WP:COPYVIO) We must put things in our own phrasing, follow Wikipedia's citation guidelines, and verify material with reliable sources WP:COI is clear: "Editors with a financial conflict of interest, including paid editors, are advised not to edit affected articles; they may suggest changes on the talk page and must disclose their COI". Montanabw^(talk) 05:09, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

Updates for United States Pony Clubs

• What I think should be changed:

SEE ALL CHANGES BELOW (copy/pasted code and made edits):

<redacted – copyright infringement>

• Why it should be changed:

This is the most accurate and up to date information. The current text on the United States Pony Clubs Page is either misinformation or outdated. Here are some examples in order to support the text changes above: - The claim that this was founded in Geneseo, NY by Genesee Valley Hunt Pony Club is not validated and this needs to be removed. - It says the club teaches mainly English riding and horse management which is not true as there are many disciplines (so not mainly english) I have replaced with the mission statement which better supports a summary of the organization and more clearly explains what the organization is at a glance. It is not a club it is an organization that oversees many clubs and riding centers so I think this also more accurately describes the organization to the public and is more accurate / factual as a summary. - The sentence describing the term pony is a little confusing with the age requirements, and less gives credit to the origin of the name. I simplified this. - There is a statement about age requirements being 21 and then changed to 25, this is no longer accurate. The US Pony Clubs do not have any age requirements and it is open to all members. (SO ALSO TYPE = YOUTH ORGANIZATION should probably be changed to EQUINE ORGANIZATION ???). While membership numbers are primarily youth it is open to all ages.

- Clubs and Centers: this is confusing because it reads as though clubs and centers are the same thing just using the term as synonyms. I updated to clarify the difference between Pony Clubs and Riding Centers, both of which fall under the umbrella of USPC. This is to clarify how the organization functions.

- Disciplines broken out to their own subcategory and defined between competitive and resource disciplines (what USPC provides rules for and regulated competions versus what USPC just supports through instruction and opportunities). This is for clarity.

- Certifications more clearly defined. The current sentence is pretty much untrue because it sounds like there are only 4 levels of certifications. There are 4 levels but for two tracks of certifications (horse management OR riding) and there are various stages within those levels. So you can be certified as D-1 or D-2 in Show Jumping or C-3 in Dressage and H-B, or H-A in Horse Management. So there are many more than just 4 certifications. I also provided the links to support local and national level certifications which can be cited to explain further the ranking scales.

- Competitions I added an updated source. Removed the note about Quiz for simplification

On Google, etc. all the other sources and citations about US Pony Club would be from local clubs or riding centers ... so the best and most accurate sources stem from USPC's website or publications.

• References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button):

I have included the citations as appropriate above inline with the text. All the other references that are on this page are outdated from the USPC website or newsletter and are either the wrong page or broken links. The links I have included are the best / most accurate to match the text they are inline with.

Ssmithuspc (talk) 18:59, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

References

Also note - if anything has to be paraphrased that is totally fine and ok, but maybe an editor can help me suggest paraphrases within the context of the new text that I have entered?? This is more accurate and concise than what is currently posted, but if anything needs updating I am happy to continue to work on it. I just saw the talk edits from 2015 which must have been from the previous communications director. Hopefully these text changes are more along the lines of the wiki guidelines (I have put my affiliation in my profile and provided sources). But if anything is too close to what is on the USPC website we can definitely change the verbiage or paraphrase / re-phrase. There are really no other primary sources as the National Office for this organization publishes all the primary sources for info, rules, policies, organizational documents, etc. So happy to change anything where needed to get this all accurate as the current info on the wiki page is really misleading and confusing as to what the organization is and how it works.

Thanks in advance for your help and support with getting this updated.

Ssmithuspc (talk) 19:13, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

@Ssmithuspc: Although I don't have time to evaluate your request thoroughly, what I can see here is that your text is largely a copy-and-paste from your organization's website, which would be a copyright violation. Superficial changes won't be enough to make a difference. I am sorry to say that you cannot post copyrighted material on Wikipedia - even if you are the copyright holder, or have the copyright holder's permission - unless the material has been released for use by the verified copyright owner into the public domain or under a license compatible with Wikipedia. These licenses allow anyone — not just Wikipedia — to share, distribute, transmit, and adapt your work, free of charge and in perpetuity, provided that you are attributed as the author. Also, because some derivative works may be commercial, we cannot accept materials that are licensed only for educational use or even for general non-commercial use. Releasing the material is both permanent and irrevocable.

A more serious matter, however, is that Wikipedia isn't that concerned with what an organization wants to say about itself. Readers expect plainly factual articles, neutrally worded and reliably sourced, written independently of their subjects. Significantly more value is placed on the coverage provided by reliable, third-party sources, as they have no vested interest in how the organization is portrayed.

In fact, significant coverage in independent sources is required for an organization to merit an article at all. The article presently cites only the organization itself as source, and this isn't enough to pass the notability criteria for organizations. If this organization lacks in-depth coverage in third-party sources, then the entire article is at risk to be deleted for being insufficiently notable for inclusion. --Drm310 🍁 (talk) 19:42, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

@Drm310: Ok thank you for the explanation ... how is this for a modified request below? And to your note, please understand these corrections are not what the organization wants to say - but more to what is true. The information on the current wikipedia page is very inaccurate. So the requested changes are for clarity and factual purposes. I am trying to explain there really are no third party sources available, but the sources I cited are the most factual and accurate. Thee current Wikipedia page as it stands is not even third party sources. So would it not be better to have more accurate citations / working links from the same source with updated info? The links currently on there are broken or linked to old pages or newsletters. This Wikipedia page comes up immediately when you google the organization so it is really important that if the page exists on Wikipedia, it needs to at least be the correct information. It can be impartial and straight facts. But having misinformation is not helpful and the page should otherwise be removed if the information cannot be improved. I am going through a lot of effort and time to request these changes the right way, I just need someone to help me figure out how to approve and get things corrected at least to the extent that the incorrect information is not on this page. So thank you again for reviewing this thoroughly and what I am actually writing. I am more than happy to continue to improve on the request, and if there is another direction to go with this to get the correct information updated please let me know.

 Not done: the proposed text was a copyright violation, no independent reliable sources were provided Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 11:10, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

MODIFIED REQUEST BELOW:

• What I think should be changed:

The United States Pony Clubs, Inc. (USPC) is an organization founded in 1954 to teach horsemanship and riding. It is based on the model of the Pony Club of Great Britain.

<redacted – copying/close paraphrasing of its website>

References

• Why it should be changed:

You can see specific reasonings in my original request above. All of the changes I am requesting are to correct inaccurate or outdated information on the current Wikipedia page. These changes also clarify and simplify confusing language that misleads to the point of inaccurate information.

• References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button):

I have included the citations as appropriate above inline with the text.

Ssmithuspc (talk) 21:16, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

I'm afraid that I will have to leave it to another editor to evaluate. I am about to start a long-delayed vacation and will be unavailable for some time. Hopefully someone else will review your request soon and provide some feedback. Best of luck. --Drm310 🍁 (talk) 03:12, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: the proposed text contained copyright violations (see also WP:close following); no independent reliable sources were provided. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 11:13, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

Ssmithuspc, thanks for using the request edit process; I'm afraid your proposals were not even remotely acceptable, for the reasons explained above by Drm310. I've now managed to identify two independent reliable sources, and have rewritten the content based on what they say; unfortunately one of them is over 20 years old, and the other over 40. Even so, I think that some of your concerns may now have been addressed; if there are still any glaring errors or omissions of verifiable basic fact, do please point them out here on this page. But please, for pity's sake, be concise – a good edit request might read something like:

• the date of establishment is wrong; it should be 1594 not 1954, see [independent reliable source, page x]

Please be aware (but not offended) that Wikipedia has little or no interest in what organisations choose to say about themselves, and absolutely no interest whatsoever in hosting a webpage for you. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 11:30, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

Justlettersandnumbers, Thank you so much for updating this. I really appreciate the edits you have made. While it is not the most up to date, it is far more accurate than what was on there and definitely addressed some of the concerns. Thank you for taking the time to help with this.Ssmithuspc (talk) 13:53, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

Request edit on 24 November 2021 (addition)

• What I think should be changed:

Add in introductory paragraph: The purpose of USPC is to provide a program that teaches riding and horsemanship.

• Why it should be changed:

Adds explanation to the purpose of the organization / clarifies what it does.

• References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button):

(page x)

Ssmithuspc (talk) 14:35, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

References

 Not done for now: I'm reluctant to add that because it doesn't really seem to be true – isn't it the member clubs that provide teaching? Anyway, your source appears to be independent and reliable (though I can't access it); if you provide me with a page number and quote the passage on that page where he says this, I'll try to add something along these lines. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 17:24, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

Justlettersandnumbers It is the national office that provides the educational materials (instruction resources, curriculum, information, etc.) to the member clubs that then facilitate the teaching. The page number is "x" and the exact passage is "The mission of the United States Pony Clubs is to provide a program for youth that teaches riding, mounted sports, and the care of horses and ponies, thereby developing responsibility, moral judgement, leadership, and self-confidence." Note - this source is from 2004 and the age range is no longer applicable as it is now open to all ages not just youth. However this clarifies a little more what USPC is. So summarizing with the requested statement seems most appropriate. Ssmithuspc (talk) 16:02, 1 December 2021 (UTC)