Talk:Ungannians

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et:Ugandi is about "province" of Ugaunia.

In my opinion it would be good to have separate articles for historical tribe (Ugaunians) and area (Ugaunia), as Ugandi is still time to time used in nowdays. --TarmoK 08:33, 9 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Re: Sander Säde from Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Principality_of_Estland What should be done about Ugaunians? Move to Ugalased?

Ugalased would be Estonian spelling. Ugaunians thats seems to have Latvian origin[1] are called Ugandians in Historical Dictionary of Estonia [2] in English translation of The Chronicle of Henry of Livonia by James A. Brundageis would be Ungannians.[3]. The spelling is also used in The March of the Teutons By Eugene M. Wait [4]. Once we're on it: People from Sakala County in English are called Saccalians by James A. Brundage and By Stephen Turnbull in Crusader Castles of the Teutonic Knights [5]--Termer 06:54, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
PS. In English 'Ugandians are also used to describe the people from Uganda. So unless we'd want to make another dismb page I'd live with the current Latvian origin of the name or call the article Ungannians that sounds a bit more clumsy. I don't have any preferences and Ugaunians is fine by me even though the spelling seems to be used in a published book just once.--Termer 07:02, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I belive this should be merged. I think this article has serous problems with usabillity. Nobody will ever find this information under this name... And information that is not accessible tends to be useless... --Alexia Death the Grey 07:09, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not to worry, the people Ugaunians AKA Ugandians AKA Ungannians are subjects by Henry of Livonia exactly on 11 occasions. All this is going to be a part of this article one day and linked into related articles. And usually nobody would merge Estonians with Estonia therefore I don't see any reasons for merging the article about the people with the article about the county where they lived.--Termer 07:44, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My main concern here is usability, not validity. I don't ever see see this article growing big enough to justify the split and the extra click the potential user needs to make to access it. As a section in Ugandi it would have much more potential to be acctually useful as an information source to someone. But I see nobody else sees it this way, so I don't object to any plans you have for it.--Alexia Death the Grey 14:02, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Rename

we need to rename this article: "Ugaunians" is basically originally Latvian for the people that were called Ungannians by the Henry of Livonia. The third available spelling, originating from Estonian Ugandians can be mixed up with the people from Uganda. Therefore I'd suggest following the English spelling from the the The Chronicle of Henry of Livonia and renaming the article as Ungannians--Termer (talk) 09:35, 30 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think the people of the African state Uganda are called Ugandans [6], [7], so I don't see how it could be mixed up with Ugandians Martintg (talk) 09:51, 30 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

yes, but click on the link I left, you'll see what I mean. Otherwise I wouldn't mind calling it Ugandians --Termer (talk) 10:13, 30 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I see what you mean. It is a pity that many people make the mistake of calling natives of Uganda Ugandians instead of the correct term Ugandans. Note Angola -> Angolan, Andorra -> Andorran, etc, etc. Martintg 10:29, 2 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So what are we going to call the article? the one ref out there from a Latvian source is not going to sell the name Ugaunians I think. I would go with the original historical spelling Ungannians listed by the Henry of Livonia. And then say it in the article: Ungannians or Ugandians etc. exactly like Oeselians or (Osilians) where the primary spelling is based on The Chronicle of Henry of Livonia.--Termer 10:37, 2 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I guess since it is about ancient people, we should use the archaic spelling that Henry of Livonia used. Martintg 11:30, 2 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That was exactly my point, it is about ancient people, and the most authentic spelling available in English is the one from the chronicles.--Termer 19:00, 2 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Rename it back!

I was the one who called it originally Ugaunians. Comment by Termer wrongly suggests I took the name from Latvian language (which I do not speak). Wrong. I wholeheartedly agree that we should use name used by Henri of Livonia and that name is Ugaunia, not Ungannia.

I have not read Latin manyscripts, but a book Henriku Liivimaa Kroonika by Richard Kleis; Enn Tarvel Binding: Hardcover Publisher: Eesti Raamat, Tallinn Date published: 1982 Here is one link: [8]

That book was available to me at the time of writing the article, unfortunately it is not now. But I do remeber that book included full latin text of Henri of Livonia and it was Ugaunia all around the place. Ungannia is probably just a typo of some earlier German translation, which.

So if you say Henry of Livonia called it Ungannia you actually mean that James A. Brundage in his translations calls it Ungannia (following probably some German sources with the same spelling mistake)

Of course, it is about one historian (Brundage) versus others (Kleis and Tarvel) but I certainly believe more Kleis and Tarvel, who included the full Latin text in their translations and have comments on every iota in this text. Unlike Brundage, whose text does not have any comments about anything and looks more like Harry Potter translation in thirld world than the publication of a nearly thousand years old text.

It is quite ironic, Estonian and Latvian historians are reading this most important document about their history last one hundred years analysing and commenting every word like it was a Bible, and your great authority is somebody who probably has never had any interest about Ugaunians and their name anyway and probably did not spend over a minute thinking about it.

So the renaming was based on wrong assumtions and should be reverted. Please name it again Ugaunians! Warbola (talk) 09:49, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The argument for renaming this article was that the most prominent English translation of The chronicle of Henry of Livonia uses the form Ungannians (p. 178. Also the most prominent scholar writing on the subject in English William L. Urban has used Ungannians -The Baltic Crusade‎ - Page 88. Also Mark R. Munzinger uses in his The profits of the Cross: merchant involvement in the Baltic Crusade (c. 1180-1230) uses "Ungannians". But in general I see no harm done if this article gets reverted back to "Ugaunians". for example Alan V. Murray uses "Ugaunians" [9] and "Ugaunia' p 244 in his The Clash of Cultures on the Medieval Baltic Frontier. + Ungannia has 153 hits in google books while Ugaunia gets 206 returns.--Termer (talk) 18:43, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]