Talk:Undine
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![]() | Text and/or other creative content from this version of Ondine's curse was copied or moved into Ondine (mythology) with this edit on 9 August 2005. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
sourcing comment
[edit]Taken from Ondine's curse
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Zotel (talk • contribs) 02:18, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
Comments
[edit]Is Lawrence a Greek name? —Vivacissamamente 13:18, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
- At that, what is a knight doing in a tale from Greek mythology? It conforms to the medieval legend of the undine, but it does not seem to match otherwise. Goldfritha 00:32, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Smoothing
[edit]I put in introductory information about the race of undines, but I don't think I smoothed out the flow from that to the fairy tale "Undine"; I'm not sure how to go about it. Goldfritha 02:28, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Editing To-Do
[edit]This page alternatively uses both "Ondine" and "Undine;" we should pick one and use it consistently. Also, there are no references given in the "Sleep" section, and I'm not sure it's appropriate as-written. Shiftychica (talk) 07:12, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
Tone
[edit]I am not comfortable with the tone set under "Characteristics," which seems to be telling me where I can go out and meet a nymph. Thoughts? Shiftychica (talk) 07:12, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
in re: Gaspard de la nuit
[edit]I removed an extensive passage (link here) which was mostly about the piano piece Gaspard de la nuit, which I did not believe was appropriate. Since my earlier deletion was reverted, I'd like to explain why I deleted the passage in the first place. There are various problems with the passage, and unless these problems are fixed, I seriously object to the inclusion of this passage in the article.
- Ravel's piece is already mentioned in the bulletted list.
- There is far too much information about the piece here: this is an article on ondines, not Gaspard de la nuit. If readers are interested in Gaspard, they can click through to the article on Gaspard; otherwise, this is overkill for what is simply a cultural reference.
- The etymology of the name Gaspard is not at all related to the article's subject, and only tangentially so to the piano piece. It should not be in this article at all.
- There are numerous spelling, grammatical, and stylistic errors.
- As to the "other cultural reproductions" that were cited, Also Spracht Zarathustra, The Magic Flute, and Amahl and the Night Visitors, what references are made to ondines? I personally cannot recall--if there are indeed references, then they should be explicitly mentioned. The reference to A Tale of Two Cities appears to be about the name Gaspard, which again is irrelevant to this article's subject.
- In addition, if these references are to be included in the article, then they should be part of the bulletted list, not as they have been formatted.
Please feel free to add this info to the article for Gaspard, once the appropriate corrections are made. However, the passage should not be here in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.179.102.50 (talk) 04:39, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
- I'm in agreement. Thank you for putting your reasons up. Good work.Luminum (talk) 13:12, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
Undine vs Ondine
[edit]So I tried to look up ondine in my dictionary and it wasn't there, but undine was. My impression is that ondine is an obsolescent variant, and that the current spelling is undine, from Neo-latin undina. I think the name of this article should be changed. Rwflammang (talk) 17:55, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
- While on the subject of name changes, is the parenthetical (mythology) accurate or even necessary? Undines were postulated by Paracelsus as part of his alchemical theory; they are not found in Greek or Roman mythology. If you go to the Undine disambiguation page, every name mentioned there comes directly or indirectly from this coinage of Paracelsus. Rwflammang (talk) 11:23, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
Requested move 2011
[edit]- The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 19:07, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
Ondine (mythology) → Undine (alchemy) – Place here your rationale for the proposed page name change, ideally referring to applicable naming convention policies and guidelines, and providing evidence in support where appropriate. Rwflammang (talk) 12:39, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
- In favor, per discussion above. Rwflammang (talk) 12:39, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Other games
[edit]Undines are also shown in Perfect World (Chinese created game, also in the International version). There are monsters early on called "Undine of Virtue, etc" that are depicted as mermaids who float on land, with fins on their hands, possibly the head. Here's a link to PWI's wiki page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.182.102.157 (talk) 00:53, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
Recent Cleaning House
[edit]Hello. Recently I gutted quite a lot of this article. Here's why: First, most of the information here was totally unsourced. Wikipedia doesn't operate on the authority of anonymous editors alone. Beyond that, statements like "The German folktale of Ondine, a water nymph who curses her unfaithful husband to cease breathing if he should ever fall asleep again, is the basis for 'Ondine's Curse'" are flatly wrong. In line with this statement, the removed material was a big tangle of confusion. The name Undine enters the record by way of the pen of Paracelsus. It is thereafter a concept specific to alchemy and/or alchemically-influenced works. The subject of water beings in folklore is another matter, and the concept of an undine and the folklore record must not be conflated if there is any hope for accuracy or concision for the article. :bloodofox: (talk) 21:30, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
- I see a bunch of poorly research stuff has accrued since my reboot of the article (or, really, just reducing the article down to a sentence or two) that saw some heavy pruning lately. It's good that the article is getting attention and that we're developing it further. I note that there's a lot more modern media out there employing the figures that we could add to the article and we could expand the Paracelsus section a lot. :bloodofox: (talk) 23:59, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
- It's a work in progress, not the end product. Eric Corbett 01:23, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
- Good. Please stop restoring unreferenced and inaccurate material in the mean time. :bloodofox: (talk) 01:27, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
- Do you really believe that you're being helpful? Eric Corbett 01:32, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
- I could ask the same to you. As you've apparently recently found the article (I cleared it of nonsense some time ago), I suspect that you're still working out the details of the topic, but this begins with Paracelsus and develops into literary works from there and into modern material like, say, video games. Conflating what was and is not the work of Paracelsus is unhelpful, as is throwing around ideas like 'folk tradition' where it doesn't exist. :bloodofox: (talk) 01:34, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
- Please refrain from adding inaccurate and unreferenced material to the article. It doesn't help. :bloodofox: (talk) 01:39, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
- What "inaccurate and unreferenced material" are you claiming that I've added? Eric Corbett 02:05, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
- Let's face a few unpalatable facts here Bloodofox. The state you left the article in was an absolute disgrace; everything that's happened to it since is an improvement. Eric Corbett 02:08, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
- Check the diff. See those sections with no references you keep editing? As for my edits: I've simply scraped stuff that was unreferenced, while you're here adding information about Undines as "minor deities" (seriously?). If you can find something to complain about that I've "added", bring it up, specifically. Otherwise I'll just pently show that you're learning about a topic as you're editing it and you act like an offended school boy, resorting to childish insults, when you're called out for making a mistake. :bloodofox: (talk) 05:33, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
- Go ahead. You've got away with your ignorant insults so far, so I suppose you will again. I've tried to explain your misconceptions about the nature of undines below; you might learn something by reading it. Eric Corbett 20:28, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
- Check the diff. See those sections with no references you keep editing? As for my edits: I've simply scraped stuff that was unreferenced, while you're here adding information about Undines as "minor deities" (seriously?). If you can find something to complain about that I've "added", bring it up, specifically. Otherwise I'll just pently show that you're learning about a topic as you're editing it and you act like an offended school boy, resorting to childish insults, when you're called out for making a mistake. :bloodofox: (talk) 05:33, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
- Please refrain from adding inaccurate and unreferenced material to the article. It doesn't help. :bloodofox: (talk) 01:39, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
- I could ask the same to you. As you've apparently recently found the article (I cleared it of nonsense some time ago), I suspect that you're still working out the details of the topic, but this begins with Paracelsus and develops into literary works from there and into modern material like, say, video games. Conflating what was and is not the work of Paracelsus is unhelpful, as is throwing around ideas like 'folk tradition' where it doesn't exist. :bloodofox: (talk) 01:34, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
- Do you really believe that you're being helpful? Eric Corbett 01:32, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
- Good. Please stop restoring unreferenced and inaccurate material in the mean time. :bloodofox: (talk) 01:27, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
- It's a work in progress, not the end product. Eric Corbett 01:23, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
Requested move 5 January 2015
[edit]- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: moved per request with Undine going to Undine (disambiguation). Favonian (talk) 15:08, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
Undine (alchemy) → Undine – All items on the Undine disambiguation page refer to undines and are hence derivative of the supernatural creature, which is the primary source of the name. Also, "alchemy" is a really really odd/reductionistic bracketed qualifier. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:33, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
- Comment if disambiguated, shouldn't it be Undine (mythology) ? -- 65.94.40.137 (talk) 04:29, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
- No, Undines are neither a component of folklore nor mythology (as is generally understood). They're essentially a 17th century invention of Paracelsus. :bloodofox: (talk)
- It seems to fit our definition of mythology, since according to that, urban legends are myths, and undines seem to have entered modern mythology. -- 65.94.40.137 (talk) 22:50, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
- No, Undines are neither a component of folklore nor mythology (as is generally understood). They're essentially a 17th century invention of Paracelsus. :bloodofox: (talk)
- Support per nominator. :bloodofox: (talk) 05:35, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
- Support, this appears to be the primary use, but I think it would be useful for the existing DAB page to be moved to Undine (disambiguation). Yngvadottir (talk) 20:07, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
- Support, per nom. --GRuban (talk) 22:32, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
- Support making this the new Undine, and the old Undine a designated DAB page. Drmies (talk) 17:29, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Undines as "Minor Female Deities" and the Folk Tradition that Never Was
[edit]Multiple editors mostly not discussing the article NE Ent 20:46, 11 January 2015 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
So, recently Eric Corbett found this page and, unfortunately, hasn't left his old habits behind. As a result, they page, which had indeed accrued numerous terrible edits since last time I cleaned it up (i.e. demolished layers of misinformation from the general confusion around the figure, probably due to its usage as a gloss and modern roleplaying games), suffered from further deterioration under Corbett, who will aggressively edit war to add unreferenced sections and misinformation, such as that Undines are "minor female deities". We can certainly do better. I encourage other editors to keep an eye on this page and demand proper sources. In the mean time, this article isn't going anywhere before we disentangle Paracelsus from the Paracelsus-influenced material (which Corbett has so far resisted) and stop insisting that there was a "folk tradition" that did not exist. Unfortunately, I suspect Corbett will respond to this with his typical schoolyard insults and subsequently feign deep distress and falsely claim to be quitting Wikipedia if the slightest reprimand comes. Without other editors, nothing will really get done here, so please do help out. :bloodofox: (talk) 05:40, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
@Bloodofox - the ideal would be a description under Paracelsus comprising paracelsus' description and then other attributes as they became appended. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:23, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
A paracelsus expert source?[edit]Soooo first things first, we need a scholarly source discussing paracelsus I guess.....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:25, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
Sticking my head in here[edit]Folks, I hate to see people I respect treating each other like this. So I'm going to butt in here. @Drmies: Probably because of the wringer I contributed to putting you through yesterday concerning another editor's problems, you botched the redaction of those comments at least once, so everybody's seen them and that's that. @Eric Corbett: You know a lot about expanding articles and improving prose, but you are not well versed in Germanic folklore and mythology. You've clambered up a gum tree here, based on poor sources. Bloodofox knows this stuff - better than me, in this instance - and has a point: we do have an article on nymphs. (And presumably articles on nixies, the Lorelei, and swan maidens.) @Bloodofox: Insulting Eric Corbett based on your take on his history here is not going to help you make your point, and he's evidently got more time to re-expand this article than you do, so ideally you'll work together on it (and Sagaciousphil too once she has better internet access again), because it does need re-expanding. What you should be doing is supplying the sources. You can't expect to just tell people to do the reading. The usual advice to experts applies: demonstrate it by explaining it, with references. To be frank, the article has a reasonable introduction now but is still a bit of a mess. What we have is a quasi-philosophical concept propounded by Paracelsus that developed a life of its own in the 19th century - not in popular culture (those are all products of high culture, part of the Romantic wave of high culture on new topics and with new themes born out of the cult of the sublime and the rediscovery of non-Classical story material), not arising from folklore (this is more analogous to Perrault's and Hans Christian Andersen's literary stories), and not arising from mythology (pace Chambers Dictionary of the Unexplained and the editor higher up the page who believes all mythology is Classical). It accrued features from figures such as those I named, because Romanticism was big on synthesis, but it's not a myth. The challenge the article faces is to state where that story occurs and what scholars say about its origins and relationship to Paracelsus; what Paracelsus actually says (and currently we refer to the same work first by its Latin title and then by a German translation ...), and how the concept of the undine varies between those 19th-century compositions that feature it. Those are more important, to my mind, than a description, because this is not a folk tradition that can be reconstructed or generalised about, it's story material that's been used by different writers and composers. It would also be nice if some scholar has written about what Paracelsus drew on, but I'm not sure either that "Alchemy" is the right disambiguator. I would suggest this article be moved to simply "Undine" and the DAB page be at "Undine (disambiguation)". Yngvadottir (talk) 16:12, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
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Ravel
[edit]Worth adding - a famous piano piece from his Gaspard de la Nuit. Johnbod (talk) 09:46, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
Olive Schreiner, Renee Vivien, Jean Giraudoux
[edit]first did a novel called Undine, second wrote a poem called Undine, and Giraudoux's play about Undine is famous 92.41.64.113 (talk) 19:26, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
- any lakes Unda, Undina`s depression in Russia 176.65.113.96 (talk) 12:01, 15 May 2024 (UTC)