Talk:Ultra

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Compelling evidence is presented here that the current article is the primary topic, and there is no consensus for a move. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 22:49, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

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Ultra (disambiguation) → Ultra – Relisted. Vegaswikian (talk) 23:10, 22 May 2011 (UTC) There is no other main article for the title "Ultra" applicable, the term can refer to really a lot. E-Kartoffel (talk) 18:11, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Probably should have this discussed at Talk:Ultra (cryptography). --John (User:Jwy/talk) 18:27, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

• Support per WP:DAB. –CWenger (^ • @) 18:43, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

  What part of WP:DAB supports this? -- JHunterJ (talk) 10:58, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

• Support, but I hasten to point out that the Ultra (cryptography) was at the base name until earlier today. I agree it's not the primary topic -- but this move should have been discussed first. Powers ^T 20:28, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

  I reverted that move pending this discussion, and provided a pointer to this discussion at Talk:Ultra. If the consensus here is for a change from primary topic to no primary topic, then the move can be carried out without consideration for that reversion. -- JHunterJ (talk) 10:58, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose, no indication given that the current primary topic should not be. -- JHunterJ (talk) 10:58, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
  • I'm 10 pages (100 results) into a Google search and the only result that's about cryptography is ours. Even searching for ultra cryptography, I had to get to page 4 before I found a relevant result that wasn't from Wikipedia. On a Google Books search, page 2. I think it's bordering on obvious that most people would be surprised to end up at the cryptography article after searching for "ultra"; it's a fairly obscure topic from seventy years ago, and there are dozens of other articles listed on the disambiguation page. Powers ^T 13:34, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose. Initially, I thought the move was a reasonable idea. Looking down the long list of topics on the DAB gave me some doubt; the list doesn't have a prominent ultra topic besides cryptography. Pulling traffic statistics for some pages shows around 500 hits per day for Ultra (cryptography). Most other entries were light hitters such as Ultra (band) that gets 2 hits per day and a duo so obscure that it doesn't even have an article. The Ultra usually gets 0 hits per day. Ultra (rapid transit) gets about 35 hits per day. The DAB pages gets about 30 hits per day. Ultraman is a heavy hitter at 1.2 thousand, but I'm not sure users expect the lone word ultra to lead there. Glrx (talk) 14:19, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

  The traffic statistics you give refer to the term "Ultra", not "Ultra (cryptography)", the page was renamed only yesterday (stats: Ultra (cryptography)}. In my opinion, the article on cryptography simply got the page views, the disambiguation page should have got. You also haven't mentioned the Depeche Mode album Ultra (album) ((stats: Ultra (album)). "Ultra" as title for the cryptography article is incomplete, as Ultra is first of all simply a Latin preposition, well established in common language with hundreds (thousands) of uses- compare with Super, Extra, Supra, Pro, Contra, Sub .... (see also similar topic articles: Fish (cryptography), Grill (cryptology), Magic (cryptography) ) (E-Kartoffel (talk) 17:01, 16 May 2011 (UTC))

The traffic I quoted was for cryptography article not the newly named page; I put the crypt suffix in for disambiguation. You understood that, so what is the issue? Where is the evidence that the original Ultra page views were just used for disambiguation and not content? In fact, the evidence goes the other way: Ultra (disambiguation) has about 30 hits per day -- many fewer than Ultra's 500. If Ultra were a disambiguation stop, then we'd expect a lot of people to click through the Ultra page DAB link and land on Ultra (disambiguation), but less than 10 percent do. "Ultra" is a complete title and the WP:COMMONNAME. WP is not a dictionary, so the prefix argument is irrelevant; even in your cited examples, the language prefix aspect is missing. The other cryptography articles in your list deserve a paren restriction because they use common words; for example, Magic (cryptography) is ten percent of Magic.

The stats for Ultra (album) are significant, but cryptology is still the majority. Furthermore, Depeche Mode is at 4.5K hits per day. Using your argument in reverse, somebody looking at the DM article might click through to Ultra (album). At this point in time, I still oppose Ultra being a DAB page. I might include a DAB link for Ultra (album) on the existing Ultra page.

Glrx (talk) 18:14, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

• Support. No real primary topic. Cryptography may have the most views but certainly not overwhelming enough. -- P 1 9 9 • TALK 14:35, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
• Support. And move the existing page Ultra back to Ultra (cryptography) or Ultra (WWII intelligence). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:08, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
• Support. The cryptography article cannot be considered the primary topic for "Ultra", so that needs to be moved back. --Rob Sinden (talk) 14:50, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose. One of the few items on the dab page that is known only as Ultra - and it has significantly more traffic. --John (User:Jwy/talk) 20:09, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose, conditionally; I'm surprised, but if the traffic statistics quoted above are not flawed in some way, there seems to be every reason to keep this as the primary topic, and certainly no pressing reason to change.--Kotniski (talk) 11:10, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose. The statistics and a look at the alternatives on the DAB both confirm my strong gut feeling that the cryptography article is the primary topic. Andrewa (talk) 15:12, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Ultra which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 21:46, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Ultra (British band) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 18:17, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

post-move

With the entire month of December after the change, we can start observing the beginning of the new trends:

• Recent monthly page views to compare the titles moved

From clickstreams:

December (2493 page views)

• Ultra_(cryptography) link 860 (~34.5%)
• Ultras link 44 (~1.8%)
• Ultra_(Depeche_Mode_album) link 44 (~1.8%)
• Ultra_(British_band) link 27 (~1.1%)
• ULTRA_(machine_translation_system) link 22
• Ultra-royalist link 15
• Ultra_(Malaysia) link 14
• Rotor_machine other 14
• Ultra_Music_Festival link 13
• Ultra-prominent_peak link 13
• ULTRA_(UK_agency) link 11
• MKULTRA_(disambiguation) link 11
• total: 1088

--Joy (talk) 19:53, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

https://wikinav.toolforge.org/?language=en&title=Ultra shows in January 2.7k incoming views, where we could identify ~1k total outgoing, of which 780 to cryptography, three or four smaller destinations that are somewhat reliably above the anonymization threshold, and six or seven other smaller destinations hovering above it.

The previous presumed primary topic is still at ~78% of identifiable outgoing traffic (1023), but only ~29% total, despite being on top of the list.

We could be missing something major, like the outgoing traffic to the top right Wiktionary links. --Joy (talk) 07:51, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

In February '24, there were 2400 incoming views, and these outgoing clickstreams:

clickstream-enwiki-2024-02.tsv:

• Ultra Ultra_(cryptography) link 734 (~30.6%)
• Ultra Ultra_(Depeche_Mode_album) link 75 (~3.1%)
• Ultra Ultras link 50 (~2.1%)
• Ultra Ultra_(British_band) link 29
• Ultra Rotor_machine other 22
• Ultra ULTRA_(machine_translation_system) link 18
• Ultra Ultra_Music_Festival link 15
• Ultra Rachel_Maddow link 15
• Ultra Ultras_(disambiguation) link 14
• Ultra Ultra_Electronics link 11
• Ultra ULTRA_(UK_agency) link 11
• total: 994

--Joy (talk) 21:14, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

In March, we saw a total of 2129 incoming views, and in turn

clickstream-enwiki-2024-03.tsv:

• Ultra Ultra_(cryptography) link 565 (~26.5%)
• Ultra Ultra_Music_Festival link 77 (~3.6%)
• Ultra Ultras link 62 (~2.9%)
• Ultra Ultra_(British_band) link 53
• Ultra Ultra_(Depeche_Mode_album) link 51
• Ultra Rotor_machine other 27
• Ultra ULTRA_(machine_translation_system) link 22
• Ultra MKULTRA_(disambiguation) link 14
• Ultra Ultra-royalist link 12
• Ultra Rachel_Maddow link 12
• Ultra Ultras_(disambiguation) link 11
• Ultra Ultra_(music) link 11
• total: 917

--Joy (talk) 20:33, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Top items from the next three months of pageviews and clickstreams:

1636 incoming views, clickstream-enwiki-2024-04.tsv:

• Ultra Ultra_(cryptography) link 376 (~23% / ~63%)
• Ultra Ultra_(Depeche_Mode_album) link 50
• Ultra Ultra_(British_band) link 39
• Ultra Ultras link 35
• Ultra Ultra_Music_Festival link 34

...

• total: 590 to 8 identified destinations

1761 incoming views, clickstream-enwiki-2024-05.tsv:

• Ultra Ultra_(cryptography) link 474 (~26.9% / ~58%)
• Ultra Ultras link 60
• Ultra Ultra_(Depeche_Mode_album) link 53
• Ultra Ultra_(British_band) link 38
• Ultra Ultra_Music_Festival link 26

...

• total: 816 to 16 identified destinations

2033 incoming views, clickstream-enwiki-2024-06.tsv:

• Ultra Ultra_(cryptography) link 418 (~20.6% / ~49.8%)
• Ultra Rachel_Maddow link 221
• Ultra Ultras link 52
• Ultra Ultra_(Depeche_Mode_album) link 36
• Ultra Ultra_(British_band) link 23

...

• total: 840 to 11 identified destinations

--Joy (talk) 08:26, 18 July 2024 (UTC)