Talk:Ultimogeniture

Mongols

Ultimogeniture was not a traditional practice among the Mongols, and Chinggis Khan did not, in fact, pass empire to his youngest son Tolui, Rather, Tolui served as regent for a short period and was succeeded by Ögedei. Ultimogeniture is an invention of the Persian historian Juvaini (see book I, History of the World Conqueror). In the oldest historical source on the Mongols, the Secret History, there is no mention of ultimogeniture, and in fact, the choice of Ogedei was undertaken as measure to avoid bloody tanistry.

I'm not saying the current sources are authoritative (they aren't), but source your claim and correct the text. (Ideally with an explanation as to where the mistaken view came from. The EB mentions Mongolia in its Borough English articles, I believe.) — LlywelynII 14:59, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

Age

I removed the following "Remembering the historically usual low age at death" as it is countered by Wikipedia's list of common misconceptions and someone who made it to their 21st birthday was likely to live another 50 years. 173.241.208.146 (talk) 13:46, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Borough English

I note that Borough English is redirected here. I think it would be useful if we could have an article on that, i.e. ultimogeniture in England. I note references to this in southeast England (but I think unreferenced). I know of a couple of examples in the Midlands and a statement that it applied to Dent Dale in the North.

I suspect that practices may have varied a little more widely than is realised. Common law inheritance was to the eldest son or (if none) ALL daughters, but I know of a manor where in default of a son, the eldest daughter appears to ahve been the heir.

I do not know of a robust academic article on this, and it may be that what I am suggesting will offend against the WP:NOR rule. Peterkingiron 08:55, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

I think that's a very strict interpretation of WP:NOR. Perhaps we could create an article on inheritance in the United Kingdom, which could also cover modern practice. Academic articles are available on many aspects of this, and it would seem reasonable to cite other examples such as you have given. It seems to me that they key thing is that we don't try to draw conclusions unsupported by published academic research, so that regardless of it truth, we must avoid claims in the article such as "practices may have varies a little more widely than is realised". Incidentally, there was an article on Borough English, but I merged it in here, as it duplicated part of this article. Feel free to create a new one, if you have enough information that it would be out of place here. Warofdreams talk 02:41, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I'll vote for "no". Borough-English is simply an aspect/synonym of this practice and should just be dealt with as a section here until there is much more info. — LlywelynII 14:59, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

Revert

I have reverted a recent edit, which implied that ultimogeniture applied to socage lands in certain southern English counties. However, socage is a variety of freehold, which always passed at Common Law by primogeniture (unless in Kent -- where gavelkind applied). The reverted edits were probably the work of a new editor, so I will assume that the edits resulted from ignorance rather than mischief. Peterkingiron (talk) 18:22, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

I have tagged the reference to socage, because socage is the usual common law tenure to which common law primogeniture applies. A reference is needed to justify this statement, as it is inherently improbable, unless a CUSTOMARY freehold (a kind of copyhold) is meant. I will add that Wolverley, Worcestershire had Borough English inheritance until the 1760s, when it became possible to opt for common law inheritance. Peterkingiron (talk) 15:38, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. The EB articles explicitly mention its use w/r/t socage lands and it's always been possible to "opt" for common-law inheritance by drafting a will. — LlywelynII 14:59, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

History of term

Is "Ultimogeniture" a real word, or has it been made up recently? Royalcourtier (talk) 04:25, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Those aren't mutually exclusive categories.

That said, the OED lists its first appearance in 1882, five centuries after Borough English, but it is the more common term recently. — LlywelynII 14:59, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

Removed section

Other methods of succession

Main article: Succession order

There are several other ways to organize hereditary succession, including

• Seniority
• Tanistry
• Proximity of blood, i.e. degree of kinship
• Elective monarchy, election from among one family
• Rotation
• Rota System
• Gavelkind

... should be listed somewhere, but not here. This isn't a page on succession at all, let alone a page for laundry listing various forms of it. There should be a single page listing all of these and a single link in the #See also section guiding readers to it. Anything else fails TOPICality and UNDUE discussion. — LlywelynII 14:59, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

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