Talk:UST Growling Tigers basketball

References for head coaches’ years of service

@NRT^530: can you please help to cite sources to recent adjustments you’ve made on coaches’ years of service? Looking at this newspaper, it says Herr Silva was UST’s 1957 coach, which is missing from the adjustment ..or might be anything else? Thanks. – McVahl (talk) 17:45, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

I got it from Fely Fajardo's wiki article:

"He also coached the San Beda Red Lions to three NCAA championships from 1951-1953, and transferred to his alma mater UST in 1955 and gave the Pontifical team the UAAP and inter-collegiate titles that year."

Herr Silva and his nephew Roger Serafico had breaks during their tenure as coaches of UST. I can't find which year Serafico resigned and went back, but for Herr, after Fajardo resigned in 1964, he was called back on an interim basis just before Caloy Loyzaga came on board to coach UST for the next three years (reference)

NRT^530 (talk) 19:02, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Season-by-season records

@McVahl:,

Hi. I noticed that you undid my revisison on the Season-by-season records section under Coach Del Rosario.

I did insert a banner that specified 1990-1992 under the "Twice-to-beat Finals era" (based on the Growling Tigers men's basketball seasons template), and below it, the "UAAP Final Four era" for the 1993 and the succeeding seasons. If we exclude those three seasons, Del Rosario's win-loss records (for his second coaching renure) would be incomplete.

I think it is important to include these rows (1990, 1991, 1992 and the previous years which may also be added as soon as better reference materials are made available) for the completeness and improvement of the article. I even made it a point to make a correction on the rankings (1990 from 5th to T-4th, and 1991 from 3rd to T-2nd) and added referenced newspaper articles as inline citation.

You did mention that there is a better way to doing this inclusion, but did not offer any solution. Instead, you deleted the data altogether. It's not that I'm being insistent in having my own way with editing. I have repeatedly said that I will support whatever editing methods are applied in the articles for as long as it will improve readability and research, but I simply do not think that deleting is the way to do it.

While we're at it, I am trying to add articles to the men's basketball seasons (beginning with the 2005 Season 68 Growling Tigers), but my only reference materials are the archived newspaper articles on Google and some forums on college basketball which are at most times incomplete. So if there are any online materials that you stumble upon, I would really appreciate it if you or other editors can share them either to my talk page or other talk pages of relevant articles.

Thanks.
NRT^530 (talk) 09:24, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

@NRT^530: Oooops! Sorry for missing out to add discussion regarding your edit. So, why did I revert it? Because the table, in a sense, is like a financial report.

Re: "Twice-to-beat Finals era" vs "UAAP Final Four era" – As I said, the numbers in this table are aligned with another article. The UAAP Final Four article is like an annual report. Each season record is like a monthly report. We review, cross-check and verify how those numbers were formulated. I am okay with combining the numbers for 2x-to-beat Finals era and Final four. But.. the former, with data for only 3 seasons? Merging 1990–92 numbers to Final four won't make sense statistically (i.e. elimination records, playoffs appearances, overall records, etc). It's like seeing data for Dec 2017 added to 2019 Annual Report. Final four stats, with completeness guaranteed, warrants a table away from Pre-Final four stats.

Re: Del Rosario's win-loss records – It's not necessary to put everything in one basket. Coaching records need to be on a separate entity like what they did in Michigan Wolverines men's basketball#Coaching records section. If done so, we must omit all coaches' stats in season-by-season table.

You're a good editor. I appreciate your effort in putting up UST's team season articles. If you plan to build up pre-2006 team articles, you may check the references in List of UAAP Final Four results. They were able to archive the games results since 1993. By the way, UST basketball articles are part of WP:CBBALL project. I am planning to deprecate {{CBB schedule entry2}} (I created this) and convert to {{CBB schedule entry}} instead, but too lazy to do it. The latter is widely applied, while former is only used in UST articles. I am also planning to build up UST's 3x3 basketball team article, but not sure if incorporating it here is enough and appropriate.

Anyway, if there are some points above (or all) you don't agree with, please let me know. Your suggestions are welcome. Thanks. – McVahl (talk) 15:10, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

@McVahl:,

I still wish there was a way for Coach Aric's record to include the pre-Final four years so that the total can be reflected at the end of the 2003 season. And I also wish we could add more season records to the section. I have in my list so far:

• Season 2, 1939 4W-2L (T-1st)
• Season 42, 1979 9W-3L (Elims T-2nd)
• Season 48, 1985 9W-3L (Elims 1st)
• Season 50, 1987 3W-11L (Elims 7th)
• Season 53, 1990 8W-6L (Elims T-4th)
• Season 54, 1991 11W-3L (Elims T-2nd)
• Season 55, 1992 10W-4L (Elims 4th)

If we're going by in adopting widely-applied templates, then this might be the one that should be used for the season-by-season table: {{CBB yearly record start}}. UCLA (11-time champions), Kentucky (8-time champions), North Carolina (6-time champions), and Duke (5-time champions) are all using them, however, Michigan State modified theirs by replacing the column for "coach" with "team name" (they changed their name from Michigan Agricultural College to Michigan State). I personally find the column for "coach" to be redundant since the banner/subhead for each coaching era already has the coach's name on it.

Throughout the years of NCAA's expansion (from 8 teams in 1939, to 68 in 2011), the number of teams that determined the start of a round have changed. Format for seedings have also changed over time, but the season-by-season records of the teams that I mentioned do not have any distinctions on which expansion era a particular row of records belonged to. Only the coaching era defined those rows.

I have nothing against the current format of UST's season-by-season table, in fact, I prefer it over the template that the NCAA teams are using. It's just that I feel it restricts inclusion of the pre-Final four records.

Regarding UST's season articles, the problem that I'm encountering with the 2005 season is the unavailability of the box scores from their two matches vs NU. I already have the roster and games results, but I can't complete my individual stats because of those missing box scores.

If you're too busy, maybe I can help in converting the games results format? Should I start with the 2019 team?

Best of luck on your 3x3 articles.

NRT^530 (talk) 16:10, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

@NRT^530: Re: "adopting widely-applied templates" – the template {{CBB yearly record start}} seems applicable to leagues with format divided into regional tournaments aka "conferences" such as US NCAA. It's not bad if we don't use it here though. What matters most is how your data is presented to your readers. Like any report or a dissertation, there must be no room for misinterpretation (or at least minimized). As editor, we need to consider readers' point-of-view as much as possible. For example, the Michigan Wolverines, a US NCAA team, has their custom table (I like this table). Having a "coach" column isn't redundant though. Readers, in some cases just skim and scan. So looking only at the season-by-season record table, it already gave them information that "this person" coached the team for that season without referencing to the coaches' list/table. Moreover, they have complete records for points/PPG/high scorers which is reasonable enough to customised the table as these are not featured in {{CBB yearly record start}}.

(So before anything else) FYI, I chose Michigan Wolverines as example here because it is assessed as Wikipedia:Good article (GA).

If we wish to include pre-Final four numbers for coach Aric, as discussed:

• (1) we will create a new table, patterned after Michigan Wolverines men's basketball#Coaching records table; and
• (2) doing #1 will force us to remove coaches' W-L totals in (season-by-season) Final four stats to avoid redundancies, i.e. coaches' stats must not appear in season-by-season table and instead, the table created in #1 will reflect coaches' performance). In this way, for coach Aric's case, this new table will reflect his numbers from 1985–1987 and 1990–2003, regardless if it is pre-F4 or F4 era.

Again, I am okay with adding pre-F4 records here. As pre-F4 records are incomplete, it is understandable that there will be "gaps" between seasons our list. But it would be better if they are split off from Final Four era records, as it has already take wide scope over the other as discussed above.

In summary, we will have three tables:

• Season-by-season records – team's record and performance per season. Split into two tables and sections:
  • Pre-Final four –  new table – probably patterned after the existing Final four records table? At least one reference required per season.
  • Final four –  already exists
• Coaching records table –  new table
  • Again, patterned after Michigan Wolverines men's basketball#Coaching records table. At least one reference required per coach (for coaching year/s)

Re: UST 2005 season articles – according to this article: UST won in round 1 and lost in round 2 (vs NU) with scores 107–100 and 73–74, respectively. It's OK if individual stats can't be provided. I think, to build up a team season article, at least game schedules/results will suffice.

Yes, please. You may convert the games results to {{CBB schedule entry}}. Thanks. Re: main topic – Let me know if you have concerns. – McVahl (talk) 18:57, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:FEU Tamaraws men's basketball which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 22:21, 25 August 2022 (UTC)