Talk:Uí Liatháin

Text moved from a different article

However, it should be noted that the Uí Liatháin are not considered tributary even in most late contexts, and were certainly not during this period, as the historical Eóganachta, who came to dominate Munster and marginalize the other kingdoms politically, did not appear for at least another century (Byrne 2001). In fact in many early sources the Uí Liatháin are considered a free, large and powerful kingdom and sometimes even peripheral Eóganachta (Byrne 2001; Charles-Edwards 2000). They are further, like the Uí Fidgenti, related to the semi-mythological Crimthann mac Fidaig, an early High King of Ireland, who is believed to have built a fortress or fortresses in Cornwall. Byrne (2001) and others in fact suggest that the Eóganachta and the Déisi of Waterford, who would be the Déisi in question, might have shared common origins, while the Uí Liatháin are often assigned to another race entirely, the powerful Érainn or Darini, connected also to the famous Ulaid and Dál Riata. Though the Eóganachta themselves were a well liked and sometimes powerful dynasty, the sources for their history are notorious in Ireland for their political fabrications (see Cathal mac Finguine), and so it is unlikely the Uí Liatháin were ever made tributary even if they were isolated. They had an independent dynasty which continued well into the late medieval period, and having such was in fact only possible for saerthuatha, or free kingdoms. The Uí Liatháin are included with these and not with the aithechthuatha in the sources. These complex but very relevant matters are discussed by MacNeill (1911), O'Rahilly (1946), Byrne (2001), and Charles-Edwards (2000).

Thanks for moving this and for making the references look like they do. I'll learn how to do that as I expand it. At some point I'll create one for the Uí Fidgenti but their ancient kingdom was not a little strange, and so it will take some planning. DinDraithou (talk) 23:47, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

You're very welcome, DinDraithou, and welcome to the ranks of registered editors! Regards, Notuncurious (talk) 02:37, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

I've looked again at Charles-Edwards' chapter on the Frithfolad Muman in his Early Christian Ireland, and he seems to push-hint that the Uí Liatháin weren't Eóganachta (so?), which therefore somehow makes the claims of the inner circle and Glendamnach kind of accurate even though they are clearly partisan and the Eóganachta were militarily weak and the Uí Liatháin probably stronger. The whole thing about their arrangement with the Corcu Loígde is that they still had some fear of the former kings of the province. Plus Eóganacht Glendamnach's people were the biggest fabricators of all, and it all seems like they were just having no luck with the Uí Liatháin. This would explain the huge rath they supposedly gave them which was I think one fourth again larger than what they gave the Corcu Loígde, although the Book of Rights is like five centuries older than the Frithfolad Muman.

None of this explains why they were so nice to the Uí Fidgenti, however, unless it was just that no one wanted to provoke the Uí Chonaill Gabra sept, and the kingdom was not isolated like Uí Liatháin and maybe could have made friends with the Connachta whom they apparently knew well enough.

Anyway Uí Liatháin was, as Charles-Edwards says, cut off from the rest of Munster. But they were still listed as saerthuatha by whoever, and they could produce a powerful enough military to be mentioned fighting outside their borders.

Finally, as I hinted, the real problem with their pedigree are the Uí Fidgenti, whom one can make a great case for being Dáirine. Not only are there a few septs in the kingdom who are obviously from the Corcu Loígde, but their capital Dún Eochair is known as one of the great capitals of the Dáirine. Then there are the names like Dáire Cerbba and Uí Dedaid and the association of the clearly Érainn figure Mongfind with Dún Eochair and elsewhere in their kingdom.

So if the Uí Liatháin had really wanted to look like Eóganachta, they would have claimed descent from Conall Corc somehow, not associated themselves with the spooky people in Limerick. DinDraithou (talk) 14:41, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Focus on article

I'm curious why the focus on this article is on Uí Liatháin influence in Britain and not their history/origins in Ireland. Is it due to a lack of sources? Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 16:09, 18 September 2013 (UTC)