Talk:Txakoli

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Txakolin in Basque

Txakolin is the only word accepted in Basque by Euskaltzaindia. In a similar case chacolí is the only word accepted in Spanish by the Real Academia Española.

In traditional texts written in Spanish we find vino chacolín, chacolín, chocolín, vino achacolinado, vino-chacolí, chacolí (chacolines or chacolís in plural ) and derived words as chacolinero. In the last few years we find as well txacolí, txacoli, txakolí and txakoli in Spanish.

In traditional texts written in Basque we find txakolin and derived words as txakolin-ardo, txakolin-dantza, txakolin-saltze, txakolin gorri, txakolin-etxe. It is just very recently that some people has started using txakoli in Basque misled by the Spanish chacolí-txakolí. Euskaltzaindia has explicitly indicated that the txakoli word usage is wrong in Basque and txakolin is the only accepted word. Writing txakoli in Basque instead of txakolin is equivalent to writing futball in English instead of football (Basque: futbol). Txakolina means literally "the txakolin".--Txakolingorri (talk) 10:39, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The Orotariko Euskal Hiztegia was made analyzing all the texts written in Basque before 1987. According to this dictionary the word txakoli appeared in two references in the Basque literature. The first book was published in 1982 and 1985 and it can be accessed here. In this book we find one example of txakoli and four examples of txakolin, which makes me think that writing txakoli was just a lapsus. The second book was written in 1960 and some references to this book show txakolin instead of txakoli, so I am highly suspicious about this reference. From these data I can only conclude that txakoli is not a word used in the Basque literature.--Txakolingorri (talk) 11:29, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, which means we can say it first appeared in 1982 because that's what historical dictionaries do, the list the first appearances of a word - by no means do they list ALL of them. So we cannot say that it only appears twice. If you do a Google search amongst Basque pages, txakoli is very common. No point in slapping a ref needed tag on that. Akerbeltz (talk) 12:58, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I did a Google search to compare the txakolin and txakoli word usage in Basque. I looked for both words adding two common Basque verbal forms: da (is) and dira (are) and I checked four Basque cases (absolutive singular, absolutive plural, genitive singular and ergative plural). These are the results:

Absolutive singular (the txakolin)

Search	Results	Percentage
"txakolina" "da" "dira"	837,000	99.70 %
"txakolia" "da" "dira"	2,510	0.30 %

Absolutive plural (the txakolins)

Search	Results	Percentage
"txakolinak" "da" "dira"	46,700	99.94 %
"txakoliak" "da" "dira"	29	0.06 %

Genitive singular (of the txakolin)

Search	Results	Percentage
"txakolinaren" "da" "dira"	491,000	99.81 %
"txakoliaren" "da" "dira"	924	0.19 %

Ergative plural (the txakolins)

Search	Results	Percentage
"txakolinek" "da" "dira"	1,320	99.85 %
"txakoliek" "da" "dira"	2	0.15 %

The frequencies related to txakolin in Basque are not lower than 99.70%. The frequencies related to txakoli in Basque are not higher than 0.30%. I compared them with two commonly misspelled words in English: "adress" (address) and "absense" (absence). I looked for both words adding two common English verbal forms: is and are.

Search	Results	Percentage
"address" "is" "are"	9,120,000,000	98.57 %
"adress" "is" "are"	132,000,000	1.43 %

Search	Results	Percentage
"absence" "is" "are"	411,000,000	99.50 %
"absense" "is" "are"	2,050,000	0.50 %

From this exercise I cannot conclude that txakoli is very common in Basque but instead a misspelled word.--Txakolingorri (talk) 09:37, 13 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Nice work but you missed one important one - do the same just using "txakoli" "da" "dira" and you get a different picture. I get 109,000 results for that, including bizkaikotxakolina.org and bizakai.net. That is against 313,000 for "txakolin" "da" "dira" - whiich is about a ration of 1:3 so it's hardly marginal. Akerbeltz (talk) 14:36, 13 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, but I did not miss that one. I avoided the term txakoli because using this term in Google search originated interferences with other languages. I found that the best way for avoiding those interferences is considering the regular usage of the Basque language, which is based on cases different to other languages. The closer to the Basque usage and farther from the interference of the Spanish language (the particle de is Spanish but it does not exist in Basque) the less use of the term txakoli, to the point that the regular use of txakoli in Basque is lower than common misspelled words in English.

Results in all languages

Search	Results	Percentage
"txakolin"	333,000	32.55 %
"txakoli"	690,000	67.45 %

Results with Basque sentences

Search	Results	Percentage
"txakolin" "da" "dira"	317,000	71.40 %
"txakoli" "da" "dira"	127,000	28.60 %

Results with Basque sentences and without Spanish sentences

Search	Results	Percentage
"txakolin" "da" "dira" -"de"	73,400	81.05 %
"txakoli" "da" "dira" -"de"	12,700	18.98 %

Results searching one case in Basque sentences and without Spanish sentences

Search	Results	Percentage
"txakolinak" "da" "dira" -"de"	13,500	99.99 %
"txakoliak" "da" "dira" -"de"	2	0.01 %

Searching in the pages getariakotxakolina.com, bizkaia.net, bizkaikotxakolina.org, and txakolidealava.com in Basque language and in the Basque Wikipedia without forgetting Euskaltzaindia, all of them employ txakolin (or txakolin declined forms) instead of txakoli (or txakoli declined forms) in Basque.--Txakolingorri (talk) 08:37, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That's why I used the delimitors "da" and "dira" which mostly strip out non-Basque pages. You're beginning to repeat yourself though. I'm not (and I've never) questioned txakolin being the recommended or even predominant form in Basque but you simply cannot make the case of txakoli being virtually unheard of within Basque as an undeclined form, no matter how much you hate the word. Akerbeltz (talk) 09:29, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]