Talk:Blue-fronted amazon

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was move. Jafeluv (talk) 12:24, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

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Turquoise-fronted Amazon → Blue-fronted Amazon — The species has a very popular name of "Blue-fronted Amazon", which has been the stable name of this article since the page was started in 2004. If there is no consensus supporting the new name, then the page move should be reverted. Snowman (talk) 09:31, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

• Note: After a long discussion at Wikiproject birds a motion was passed 10 to 2 that the IOC name "should be the default position, and that in the cases of no consensus, the name should be at IOC name (that is, for a species to remain at a non-IOC name, there has to be a clear consensus)". This is in line with Wikipedia:Naming conventions (fauna)#Article title that "If the article is about an animal belonging to a group where Wikipedia editors have agreed on a standard for choosing among two or more common names, follow that standard". -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 13:41, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

There was a specific discussion on this parrot and the move was contested on the WP Talk page Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Birds#Pages_to_move_.281.29 and there was no consensus to move it. Snowman (talk)

• The above motion was passed after the discussion about exceptions was derailing the whole process, and therefore supersedes the contested discussion. The motion specifically statetd to move first, and see after wards if tehre is a consensius to deviate from the IOC name. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 15:08, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

  This was a controversial page move and specifically contested and I think that it should have been discussed on this page first. Snowman (talk) 17:37, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

  Please see motion. Why do you keep ignoring that motion? -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 17:46, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

  I do not understand why anyone would make a special heading for contested page moves and then move them all. Snowman (talk) 17:52, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

  Things happen in sequence. At first, it seems to be a good idea to see if there would be a few exceptions, but when it derailed, a motion to move on was passed. What is so difficult on that? The contested move section was superseded by the later motion. So, why do you keep ignoring that motion? -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 17:57, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

  The contested list gives every reason to think that and there was a consensus not to move these parrots. No one added comments to say that they should be moved after one week of waiting for more comments. The motion specifically mentions earlier consensus so the contested list was not superseded. Snowman (talk) 18:33, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

  Then you seem to be the only one who sees it that way as the motion says: "Thus for all above where consensus is not clear, the name should be moved." -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 19:07, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

  Did you consider anything else prior to making moves of every parrot page, even the parrot page moves that were contested? Snowman (talk) 20:10, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

  I considered that I really do not like New Zealand Kaka and prefer Kākā, just as Kākāpō over Kakapo. But that is probably not what you were asking, so what did I consider? I liked it that the motion was clearly worded, and that the support for it was so clear, as that was taking away a lot of the ambiguity that was going on earlier at the page. In the end, I am in favour of moving each and every page to the scientific name, no exceptions, because that is the ONLY unambiguous name and the only way to stop the continued bickering, so having a clear standard on what names to use is the best compromise I can get. I come myself from the aviculture corner, I had up to a 100 parrots and parakeets at times, so I understand that sector. I am a birder as well, so I understand that sector. I am taxonomist as well, so I understand that sector as well. So, yes, when I voted for specific motions, I had those things in mind. Once it was decided, I follow suit, and do what the consensus is about. The most detrimental to a project like this is if one person continues to forum shop, to ignore consensus, and to wikilaywer till that person gets his way. If you want to be part of a collaborative effort, deal with the fact that some decisions are not what you want them to be and put your pet-projects to the side. If you cannot do that, you are in the wrong place. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 20:27, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Support

1. Strongest possible support. 711 Google Scholar hits for "blue fronted amazon" vs. 9 GS hits for "turquoise fronted amazon". That's completely, utterly, totally conclusive, as far as I'm concerned. --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 17:18, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
2. Support as nominator. The essence of its Latin name is the feminine form of the Latin adjective aestivus, "of the summer". The blue of feathers on its face and head remind one of summer. Similar to blue sky. I have always heard this parrot being called a "Blue-fronted Amazon", and never a "Turquoise-fronted Amazon". Snowman (talk) 17:34, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
3. I am going to support this, as I indeed can see that this name is very little used. Unless the IOC provides a clear explanation, I am going to support an exception to the IOC name here. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 17:52, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Oppose

1. happy with IOC name. Maias (talk) 00:09, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Neutral

1. I would still prefer this to be kept as is, but I am sympathetic to the charge that uneccassary changes were made by the IOC (so go email them about them!). Sabine's Sunbird talk 19:42, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Requested move 27 June 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (I will not see your reply if you don't mention me) 03:29, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

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Turquoise-fronted amazon → Blue-fronted Amazon – This might be a controversial one. Looking back over some of the discussions over the names of bird (and particularly parrot) articles, some of them have got VERY heated. Not my intention to offend anyone or troll, but as I was editing tonight I decided to do a search on Google Scholar for this species (as something else I came across made me think to look it up). As far as I am concerned, "blue-fronted Amazon" is the vastly, vastly, overwhelmingly accepted name for this birdie. According to Google Scholar - "blue fronted amazon" = 1850 results, while turquoise-fronted amazon = 153 results. As I understand it, the species name was changed by the International Ornithologists' Union a few years ago - but it doesn't really seem to have been taken up. Should this be moved back, per WP:COMMONNAME? Iloveparrots (talk) 20:30, 27 June 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Adumbrativus (talk) 04:13, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Also, I note that a previous move discussion moved this page to Blue-fronted Amazon in 2009 and that also in 2016, @Aa77zz moved it to the current title in violation of this consensus without discussion (no shade - I see he's still active and I respect his knowledge and edits). --Iloveparrots (talk) 20:38, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

See also the related discussion I started for the sun conure/parakeet. Cheers. Iloveparrots (talk) 21:45, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Oppose move - keep as turquoise-fronted amazon. This is the IOC name and editors of Wikiproject Birds have decided to follow the IOC taxonomy and names. "The IOC is also the de facto standard for English bird names." See here

The South American Classification Committee of the AOU (SACC) uses "Turquoise-fronted parrot". They discussed the English name in 2011 - See Note 37 here: "Formerly (e.g., Meyer de Schauensee 1970) called "Turquoise-fronted Parrot" but changed for no apparent reason to “Blue-fronted” in many recent treatments (e.g. Sibley & Monroe 1990, Collar 1997, Juniper and Parr 1998, Clements 2000, Forshaw 2010). SACC proposal passed to restore “Turquoise-fronted.”" See SACC proposal 498.

I checked on which name was used by the bird lists:

• IOC here:Turquoise-fronted amazon
• eBird/Clements (2022) here: Turquoise-fronted parrot
• Birdlife International/IUCN (2023) here and here: Turquoise-fronted amazon
• H&M4 (2013) Vol 1 p.362 here: Turquoise-fronted parrot
• HBW (1997) Vol. 4 p. 473 here: Blue-fronted amazon
• Forshaw Parrots of the World p. 536 (1978) here: Blue-fronted amazon

"Working Group Avian Checklists" aims to harmonise the world lists - but as of June 2022 they hadn't looked at parrots - see here - Aa77zz (talk) 10:01, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Making a similar point to the one I made at the sun parakeet discussion. It just seems really odd to me that we have a more widely-used name for this species (by far) that we can't use because of a decision by a few people on a Wikiproject several years ago - a vote that involved 12 people in total. Does the WP:BIRDS agreement supersede WP:COMMONNAME/WP:OFFICIALNAMES? There was even a previous move discussion (see up-page) in 2009 where it was specifically decided to make an exception to the IOC name in this particular case, involving many of the same people who originally voted on the IOC name policy... Iloveparrots (talk) 19:59, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

COMMONNAME isn't the only thing to consider for article titles. Following a single source such as IOC allows us to meet the WP:CONSISTENT article title criterion. American robin and European robin are most commonly referred to simply as "robin". Adding American/European may be a reasonable way to disambiguate, but it isn't how people commonly refer to them in conversation. Plantdrew (talk) 16:04, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

• Weird one here. We've had several moves, almost all of which abided by the discussion above for 7 years and were reverted as such, before a move at the end of 2016 by Aa777zz was incorrectly reverted by Snowmanradio (check the Talk page history and compare it to the Article page history – the move was only reverted on the talk page). I think this means the last stable title is Blue-fronted amazon (due to this discussion), as the move to Turquoise-fronted amazon was contested, and therefore a consensus for Turquoise-fronted amazon needs to be proved. The closer could differ from me here, but that's my interpretation of what the stable title is.

As for where should this be? I lean towards supporting the move per WP:COMMONNAME and sticking with the previous discussion, which staked out an exception to the IOC names rule, to go with Blue-fronted amazon. Ngrams don't pick up turquoise, Google Scholar results heavily favored Blue-fronted amazon above, and all of GHits, Google News and Google Books either favor or heavily favor Blue-fronted amazon. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 02:29, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

• Support In accordance with WP:COMMONNAME. The whims of a decision made by a single WikiProject are not the end all be all of consensus. Similarly to what one of the commenters in the WP:BIRDS discussion brought up, this is a perfect opportunity for WP:IAR, with respect to the decision made by WP:BIRDS. EggRoll97 ^(talk) 02:15, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

• Support. If there is an overwhelming WP:COMMONNAME, a different name cannot be dictated by an official decree. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 16:07, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
• Support per commonname, n-gram findings, this discussion, and the close of the last RM. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:20, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Post-move note: The proposal appears to have included a suggestion to change the capitalization from "amazon" to "Amazon". I don't know whether anyone noticed that during the discussion (I didn't). After the move was closed, the lowercase was retained rather than using the suggested uppercase. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 23:28, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

If I was aware of the move-page discussion, then I would have supported the move to blue-fronted amazon too. Snowman (talk) 00:41, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

In the 2023 move-page discussion above, I do not know why User:Skarmory says that I incorrectly reverted the article talk page in 2016. The article name, as agreed by the move discussion in 2009, was blue-fronted amazon at that time, but it was moved to turquoise-fronted amazon by another user. I tried to restore both the article and the talk page back to blue-fronted amazon, the agreed name, but moving the article page was somehow blocked. I think that my attempted intervention was appropriate in 2016. Snowman (talk) 11:08, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

@Snowmanradio: From a technical perspective, the move was incorrectly done. I was trying to figure out the last stable title (in case of a no consensus close), and personally deemed that incorrect move, while done incorrectly, was an indication that the last moved to Turquoise-fronted amazon was contested. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 19:07, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

The concept of my attempted page move was correct, but I could not move it without administrator's tools. The article is now at blue-fronted amazon, which is where I was trying to move the article to. Snowman (talk) 08:00, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Festive amazon which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 19:17, 17 July 2023 (UTC)