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Did you know nomination

[edit]
The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 talk 02:51, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Created by Launchballer (talk). Self-nominated at 14:40, 31 December 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Turno (musician); consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.[reply]

  • Comment: I think ALT0 and ALT1 are pretty close to ready. I don't see ALT2 in the article, did I miss it? I like ALT0, but it's a bit lengthy. Why not just cut to the chase and say he appeared in a documentary about male suicide? Also, should his brother be mentioned? I also like ALT1, but why do we need to know the date of the range? I'm more interested in the range itself and want to know more about that. Finally, I also like ALT2, and I think it's almost perfect, but I wonder if there's an easier, shorter, more direct way to say that Skepsis began producing with the help of the grant? But it needs to be added to the article. Apologies if this is nitpicking. Viriditas (talk) 08:47, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"When he was fourteen or fifteen, his school won a grant from the government of the United Kingdom to embellish its music department, which ordered itself a number of iMacs with Logic Pro on them, which prompted Jenkins to develop an interest." - although perhaps that could be clearer. I left out his brother because I felt the hook was enough of a mouthful, but I can suggest...
ALT3: ... that prior to entering the UK Singles Chart with "Rave Out", Turno had appeared in a We Are England documentary about male suicide following his brother dying that way?
...and then a prepbuilder can decide whether or not to crop it; same with the date of Turno's clothing range.
ALT4: ... that the British musician Skepsis took up production after his school was awarded a government grant?--Launchballer 09:56, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Skepsis (musician)
General: Article is new enough and long enough
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
QPQ: Done.

Overall: Approve ALT 16. Please add sources for ALT0. I'm seeing two noms and only one QPQ. Copyedits to article needed ("and a Canterbury university"..."in an July 2017"..."embellish its music department"..."a number of iMacs with Logic Pro on them"). Also, like Turno, you are over-focusing on specific dates instead of a more cohesive narrative. One problem I see is that the biographical sourcing is very weak, although I note a small blurb in Billboard. Not sure what can be done to improve this. Question to ask: would this article survive a prod? Viriditas (talk) 01:39, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Launchballer: What, in your opinion, are the two best, most reliable sources in the Skepsis article? Viriditas (talk) 08:24, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Much of Manchester's Finest is in its own words and MixMag is very good, although I plan to keep digging. --Launchballer 12:01, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Launchballer: One thing that I found odd about the Manchester's Finest article was it's description of the heavy security Skepsis faced at SFO. Having traveled through there a lot, I've found their security to be one of the most pleasant. Contrast this with the soldiers holding machine guns at JFK, which I've never gotten used to and still freaks me out, that kind of description of SFO struck me as weird. I tried to find more material about Manchester's Finest and was unable to do so. I was, however, able to confirm that MixMag has been around since day one and has been cited as a reliable source just about everywhere. Viriditas (talk) 19:36, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Launchballer: Can you point me to a Skepsis or Skepsis/Turno double hook that doesn't use an interview as a source? I want to see a source similar to Bristol Post, written by journalist about the subject. The only thing I see are commercial sites which appear to be sponsors or affiliates. If you can cite me a hook about Skepsis or Skepsis/Turno that isn't an interview or a commercial sponsor, then we can move forward on this. My personal approach is to only cite interviews in hooks when the information is widely available and known from secondary sources that have already covered it. Viriditas (talk) 20:40, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've got to be honest and say I'm struggling; there's not much interesting in Mixmag, and most of the reliable sources deal with Skepsis vicariously, i.e. they either talk about Crucast or one of his works.
ALT11: ... that after losing his brother to suicide, Turno released a charity record and a UK Top 40 collaboration with Skepsis about men's mental health?
Incidentally, I did google "manchester's finest editor", which showed me links to Steven Pankhurst and Lee Isherwood, and then took up the site with Muck Rack, which shows the existence of multiple staff, ergo this isn't just some one-man-and-his-blog. The author, Martin Guttridge Hewitt, appears to be a regular contributor to DJ Mag. It's no Bristol Post, but I would consider it reliable.--Launchballer 12:28, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Launchballer: Which source supports ALT11? It helps to add them to the proposed hook. I assume it is MF, but I just want to make sure. Viriditas (talk) 19:03, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, my mistake. From 'brother' to 'record' is Bristol Post, 'and' onwards is the Official Charts Company. MF did just give me an idea though.
ALT12: ... that the British bassline musician Skepsis produced his pandemic album Faith in Chaos after feeling his previous works were not being appreciated? (Source: https://www.manchestersfinest.com/music/skepsis-talks-debut-albums-relocating-to-the-north-west-and-crucast/, "Although part of this decision was born from years of making music aimed away from the sweat and strobe of a party, Skepsis confesses he also hopes the broader sounding ‘Faith In Chaos’ packs more longevity. The relentless nature of dropping tracks solely for clubs doesn’t always bode well for lifespan. “It can be quite disposable, because we’re in such a digital age, things come and go quickly. And I feel over the last few years attention spans have really declined. So artists are putting tracks out all the time but can quickly see them forgotten. I wanted to release something that would last a bit longer,” he explains. “[But] there’s always pressure to release big tracks. At the end of the day, it’s about what’s popular.”")--Launchballer 11:06, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Launchballer: I like ALT11, but I dislike the use of sources here. BP only talks about Turno, while OCC is not a secondary source. If you can find better sourcing for ALT11 or convince me otherwise, I will support it. Preferably something that talks about Turno and Skepsis. As for ALT12, I don't see that particular hook in the source, but I do see some other alternatives. Maybe play around with it a bit. Viriditas (talk) 00:35, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
New one on me regarding OCC not being secondary. Stealth Club should work. Jungle Drum and Bass talks about both Turno and Skepsis but does not contain the chart position, and I'm struggling to find a post-charting source that a) talks about them both and b) has that in. (Music-news.com has the position, except it's a blatant copy-paste of an OCC prose article.) And ALT12 should be in Skepsis' quote, although it's paraphrased, so the word 'appreciated' appears in meaning only. But just in case:
ALT13: ... that the British musician Skepsis produced his pandemic album Faith in Chaos out of wanting to release something less disposable?
ALT14: ... that the British musician Skepsis uses sausage fattener in his works?--Launchballer 11:56, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I like ALT14, but isn't it slightly (but unintentionally) pejorative towards the artist given the status of the plug-in? In other words, anyone can press the button? Viriditas (talk) 21:15, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, if you know what it is already, which I suspect a layreader won't (I assumed it was a cooking implement).--Launchballer 09:23, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Right, but the thing is, all artists of his type and class use the sausage fattener plug-in, which is partly why it is a joke meme. It's ubiquitous. While I personally like the hook, I'm not sure it passes the interestingness criterion because all the DJs use it or similar effects. It also is slightly demeaning towards him (I know you didn't intent it that way), so I would say strike it. Viriditas (talk) 19:34, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There's a hook in "he released bassline for five years, then switched to drum and bass and was in the UK Top 40 within a year" but I want to verify the sourcing for it when I'm a little less sleepy. I will come back to you when I do.--Launchballer 00:55, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry, I'm struggling to look at this nom at the moment. I'll get back to you when I can.--Launchballer 12:03, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Let me try to close this out. I think you've done what you can and you've obviously put a lot of work into it. Viriditas (talk) 18:21, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Launchballer: The Skepsis_(musician)#Artistry section needs cleanup. The prose needs some work. As for hooks, I'm not seeing anything I can sign off on. Viriditas (talk) 18:32, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Launchballer: Let's try to reinvent the wheel again. I think your original approach with ALT0 was your best one so far, and I think you know that, but the way you worded it and the sources aren't all that great, so let's come back to that now with a variation on it, focusing on the Ultra Records writer's camp collaboration. This means writing about Skepis, Turno, Charlotte Plank, and mental health in one hook again. I see you've got the interview on UKF to support it, but I would like to see one other reliable source about the collaboration that isn't an interview, establishing some kind of independent notability. Would the Bristol Post fit that description? Viriditas (talk) 18:42, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
About the "Rave Out" collaboration, the best sources for that are Dansende Beren, Jungle Drum and Bass, and in a much smaller form DJ Mag. Unless I'm misunderstanding you, I suspect that it being written at a writing camp would not be interesting enough for a hook (most Top 40 tracks are written that way, and I suspect a merciless prepbuilder would take it out), but I've reordered the Artistry section somewhat.
ALT15: ... that prior to his Skepsis and Charlotte Plank UK Top 40 single "Rave Out", Turno had appeared in a documentary about male suicide? (For the chart position, see OCC/Stealth Club, and for the documentary, see Bristol Post.)--Launchballer 11:20, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Partially moving this to the bottom of the page; please reply there.--Launchballer 18:26, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Notes
  • LinkedIn is used appropriately per WP:RSPLINKEDIN ("uncontroversial self-description").
  • Has had a single or album on the UK Singles Chart.
  • Has contributed to an album with DJ Q and Jamie Duggan that was distributed by The Orchard, a subsidiary of Sony Music.
Turno (musician)
General: Article is new enough and long enough
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
QPQ: Done.

Overall: Prefer ALT10. Please add sources for ALT0. QPQ applied. Good work on the article, but the prose is a bit stiff and robotic and could use some copyediting and prompting. For example, you don't say that Mind is a mental health charity, and you can't expect the reader to know what all of these things are without simple prompts. Also, do we need to know the exact day that his brother killed himself? Maybe the month and year would suffice. Your lead is a bit terse given all the content that you have. Anyway, just add the sources for the hooks here and we will go from there. Regarding hooks, I like ALT1, but the sourcing is really bad. I would not approve this based on the current source. For claims like this, it's best to use secondary sources establishing notability. Simply quoting the subject themselves saying "we have our new clothing range dropping today, go check that out" isn't good enough, IMO. ALT2 and ALT4 have similar problems, but I do like ALT4. I think using interviews as sources is tricky because they are borderline primary/secondary sources depending on how they are used. My own take is that for DYK at least, we need to raise the bar and demand secondary source coverage to prove importance and significance. One way to approach this is to start with the source itself. Looking at your article, you've got the Bristol Post article[1] which is a secondary source jumping off point for a hook. In other words, you have a journalist, Assiah Hamed[2] who has written about the subject. I would start there, writing a hook around what she says, not the cited quotes from the interview. There's a difference. We want to try to create hooks independent of the subject from the POV of the author writing about them. Aside from the Bristol Post, the biographical sourcing is still pretty weak. Viriditas (talk) 21:36, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The QPQ I supplied was for a double nom, so I'm using both for this. ALT0 and ALT3 use [3] for the song charting and [4] for his We Are England participation. I've attempted to loosen Turno's prose a bit; I've added an extra source specifically for the fact that he set up the clothing range, I would argue that its date is uncontroversial enough that the interview could be used for that (it doesn't really serve him whether it's seven years old or seven days). And Skepsis passes WP:MUSICBIO#C2 as Rave Out charted, although that didn't stop Dan Fable, and I should probably do some more work on it.--Launchballer 01:26, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. I made the QPQ explicit up above. Will continue the review later, as I'm off to work. I would encourage you to create hooks using only secondary sources like the Bristol Post. Viriditas (talk) 02:13, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Launchballer: I think you could make a great hook about mental health (or other things) using what Hamed writes in the BP. I don't see any reason why I wouldn't pass such a hook. Viriditas (talk) 08:23, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ALT5: ... that the British jump-up musician Turno released "What's On Your Mind?" in September 2022 to commemorate one year since the suicide of his brother, with all profits going to the mental health charity Mind? (date per UKF, everything else per Bristol Post).--Launchballer 12:01, 13 February 2024 (UTC)"A year after the passing of his brother, Fabio Moliterno, Turno debuted his latest single What’s On Your Mind? , a hip-hop and grime track featuring SJ Loq, Myleedan, Phizi and Too Lippy. The follow-up D&B version of the tune, which will be released on October 10, will have all its profits donated to mental health charity, Mind. Turno (real name Francesco ‘Franko’ Moliterno) hopes that the song based on Fabio’s story can encourage other men to open up and talk. Ultimately he hopes that this can help spark meaningful discussions and urgent action.[reply]
WP:DYKTRIM. That hook is over 200 chars. Aim for 70-150. Viriditas (talk) 22:13, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ALT6: ... that the British jump-up musician Turno released "What's On Your Mind?" in September 2022 to mark one year since the suicide of his brother?--Launchballer 22:23, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I like it, but several things: 1) don't link to anything before your article because it will steal views. You can still do it, just discouraging you from doing it. 2) I still think you can work in the profits going to a mental health charity by chopping out "the British jump-up musician" and not directly naming "Mind" as the charity. Try it. Viriditas (talk) 22:38, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ALT7: ... that Turno released "What's On Your Mind?" in September 2022 to mark one year since the suicide of his brother, with all profits going to charity?--Launchballer 22:41, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That looks good. As long as the source supports it and it's cited in the article, I will pass it. I hope I'm not going to get accused of promoting my own hook here, as you clearly created it in toto. Viriditas (talk) 22:47, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've done some more work on Skepsis, so it should now look a little healthier. What else do I have to do to get it promoted?--Launchballer 12:58, 16 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Launchballer: Working on it now. Sorry, I've had a busy couple of days, and I'm only just now getting back into the thick of things. Viriditas (talk) 00:07, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Launchballer: ALT5 and ALT7 might need to be adjusted, perhaps just by removing references to the date (September 2022). BP says that it wasn't the original September 2022 version of the song that had its profits donated, but the later October 10 version.[5] Of course, there's a possibility that this was also retroactive, we don't know based on the BP source, but given what we do know here, maybe the dates aren't necessary? Viriditas (talk) 00:39, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That article says "The follow-up D&B version of the tune, which will be released on October 10, will have all its profits donated to mental health charity, Mind." but it also says "all profits from Turno’s recent project will be donated to Mind", which I thought meant the original?--Launchballer 08:04, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It honestly isn't clear what they are referring to, and that tidbit sounds like an editor failed to copyedit that part and left it in by mistake, I don't know. Wouldn't the "recent project" refer to everything after October? If we stick to just the facts that we can easily discern from the BP article, then it's clear that the original version of the song was used to raise awareness of mental health and the remix had its profits donated to Mind. Does the recent projects also refer to profits from his performance at Tokyo World? Keep in mind, one way this could easily be fixed is by changing ALT5 to " with all profits from the remix going to the mental health charity" and ALT7 to "with all profits from the remix going to charity?" I don't feel too strongly about this, but it did come to mind when I read the source. Viriditas (talk) 08:19, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would say that given that sources disagree, it's better to leave it off.
ALT8: ... that Turno released "What's On Your Mind?" in September 2022 to mark one year since the suicide of his brother?--Launchballer 09:12, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Launchballer: We could go with that, but I think what would be most interesting is just to keep it simple with a hook saying Turno lost his brother to suicide and now uses his music to raise awareness of mental health and donates money towards that cause. How you manage to say all that in one hook, I leave up to you, but I'm sure it would be a good hook, and frankly, that's what you've been trying to do all along. So maybe, forget about the name of the song and the date and focus on the essential nature of what Turno is doing. Viriditas (talk) 10:02, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ALT9: ... that after losing his brother to suicide, Turno released a charity record and released a UK Top 40 single about men's mental health?--Launchballer 10:32, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Launchballer: Perfect. No need to say "released" twice, just say "released a charity record and a UK Top 40 single". One use of "released" works for both. Add that sourced to the article (lead is the easiest place since most of that is already there, but you can add it anywhere you want) so the hook is explicit and we are good. If you don't, someone is going to say "I don't see that in the article" and it will just languish here. Viriditas (talk) 10:41, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ALT10: ... that after losing his brother to suicide, Turno released a charity record and a UK Top 40 single about men's mental health?--Launchballer 11:45, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Prefer ALT10. Review up above. Hook for Turno (musician) good to go. Viriditas (talk) 19:11, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ALT11 is just ALT10 with "collaboration with Skepsis" instead of "single", and the sources are exactly the same (Bristol Post to 'record', and the Official Charts Company for the chart position). I have been using OCC as a DYK-acceptable source for a very long time and twice this month alone (Mike "Hitman" Wilson and Elijah Hewson) and I have never had a problem, and for some more independent reliability for "Rave Out", search this page for "Dansende". If ALT10 is acceptable, there's no reason for ALT11 to not also be.--Launchballer 17:45, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Launchballer: I am sympathetic to your position. If we pass ALT11, then you can get the double nomination. My problem is that I either fail to see how OCC supports it, or I fail to see how BP supports. I admit, it's possible I am missing something. Here is the OCC source. While I agree with you that we can interpret that the collaboration occurred with Skepsis from this link, and assume the rest from other sources, that's not how I use sources when I write articles, so that's a bit beyond my ken. If others think this is acceptable, I will pass it and we can move forward. The way I try to use sources is, in as much as possible, in an unambiguous manner, depending, for the most part, on secondary sources that are explicit. If our styles differ here, the input of others can be helpful. Viriditas (talk) 19:42, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There's an OCC prose article if that's of any use?--Launchballer 21:26, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Launchballer: It helps tremendously, and it’s what I’ve been asking for the whole time. Is it used in the current article? Viriditas (talk) 21:42, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I just added it.--Launchballer 21:51, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Launchballer: Great. Now all we need to do is tie up loose ends. There's no mention of the plight of Turno's brother in the Skepsis article, so if I approve ALT11 based on Skepsis alone, it wouldn't make much sense when someone goes to look at the Skepsis article. Viriditas (talk) 22:12, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Done.--Launchballer 22:54, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Launchballer: Final issue to work out, and I'm really sorry to bring this up, but we keep having these issues. We previously discussed this, but looking back at Turno, I don't think it was ever adequately addressed. After Turno lost his brother to suicide, the sources are clear that this led him to work on "What's On Your Mind", but do the sources directly say it also led him to work on "Rave Out"? The statement, that "after losing his brother to suicide Turno released a charity record" refers to two different songs, the release of "What's On Your Mind" and later, "Rave Out". I'm concerned again that the sources are being used in non-explicit ways to develop novel wordings. The BP source, which we previously discussed, was used to support the idea "after losing his brother to suicide" Turno worked on the charity single "What's On Your Mind", not "Rave Out". Do you see the problem I keep running into here? This is why it is so important to just use the source without any interpretation. The BP source doesn't say anything about "Rave Out". If you know of a way to fix this, let me know. I think it's really important to simply follow the sources explicitly, otherwise we are creating novel hooks. Is it true that Turno lost his brother to suicide? Yes. Is it true that he and Skepsis worked on a charity record about mental health? Yes. But you are drawing the connection between the suicide, the charity record, and mental health. BP, on the other hand draws the connection between the suicide, "What's On Your Mind" and the charity Mind, not Skepsis or their collaboration, or the album. This is why I keep having so much difficulty. Looking at this source, I don't see anything about a charity or mental health. Looking at the article on Skepsis, I don't see anything about charity. Viriditas (talk) 00:53, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Launchballer: I'm working on a solution. Viriditas (talk) 01:02, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ALT16: ... that after losing his brother to suicide, Turno collaborated with Skepsis and Charlotte Plank on a single about men's mental health? Sources: 1, 2

Note my solution. I don't see anywhere in the sources where the EMI collaboration was part of a charity effort. The sources, however, do discuss Turno's charity in parallel to the discussion abut the single, so I could see where there is some confusion. I have updated ALT16 accordingly as well of the articles in question. I also added Charlotte Plank back in per the previous hooks up above, as the sources indicate she was an essential player. Viriditas (talk) 01:39, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note, ALT16 doesn't mention the documentary about mental health or the creation of Turno's registered charity, or the charity single, because I wanted to keep it short and sweet, but if you want to work that in there, try an ALT17 that talks about all of those things. I realize you might not like ALT16 because it skips those things, and goes from the suicide to the EMI release, but if you want to put all that stuff in one hook for ALT17 showing the thematic continuity between all of those things, that would be great, but do so carefully. ALT11 was very confusing, and implied that Turno's charity work and collaboration with Skepsis were the same thing. Viriditas (talk) 02:13, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@AirshipJungleman29: It looks like Launchballer is getting ALT11 ready for a double hook. We just need to finalize it and get everything sorted out. Viriditas (talk) 21:50, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@AirshipJungleman29: I just reviewed this entire discussion, revisited the articles, made a few changes here and there for accuracy, and reformulated ALT11 as ALT16 based on corrections and revisions. I don't believe ALT16 is a new hook that needs a new reviewer, but I wouldn't be opposed to it. It's just that ALT16 isn't all that different from what has been discussed here already. I also don't know if Launchballer supports ALT16 as it is currently the middle of the night where they live, and I'm only getting ready for sunset. I'll leave this in your hands, but I think this double hook is good to go. Part of the major delay here is that there has been major confusion about the sources and the hook wording. For example, the original ALT11 said "Turno released a charity record and a UK Top 40 collaboration with Skepsis", but as it turns out, that is incredibly vague and ambiguous, as there was no charity record, it was just a single, and the collaboration did not occur on that charity single, but on a separate EMI release. Hopefully, I've been able to clear this lingering confusion up with ALT16. Viriditas (talk) 02:12, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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