Talk:Trombone/Archive 1

Archive 1

Repertoire

• The repertoire of trombone solo and ensemble literature has grown steadily since its beginnings in the Romantic era,

That's not right. I am currently working on one of many trombone solos from the classical/pre-classical era (this one by Wagenseil). The alto trombone in particular was as virtuosic a solo instrument as any in mid 18th-century Vienna. The tenor trombone was written for in the first half of the 19th century throughout Germany. The existing statement is just untrue.

Also, contrabass trombones can be pitched in G or F, like older bass trombones - and the G bass trombone is still in use in England today. Thechuck

You are, of course correct. If it wasn't 3:30 in the morning, I'd fix it myself. --Jemiller226 07:24, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

See also...

Why the unilateral removal of a ton of links? At least half of those names weren't jazz trombonists, and no effort was made to differentiate between those who are and those who aren't. *sigh* --Jemiller226 06:17, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

Most of them actually where trombonists imho. No names should have gone lost.. Tobias

I'm fairly sure that there are other, more ideal places to put those names, such as list of jazz trombonists or even trombonist. Unless, of course, we were to put the names we wanted to in a sort of history of trombonists, similar to is done at Tennis. MToolen 12:58, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

They also have a section entitled Great players that serves essentially as a list of links, though put into paragraph form. IMO that would've been a better way to handle this than just to dump all those names. To Tobias...they were all trombonists...not really any opinion to it. None of them played anything else as a primary instrument (with the possible exception of Dee Barton, who was a great drummer as well). I don't quite understand what you meant... --Jemiller226 02:02, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Article removed from Wikipedia:Good articles

This article was formerly listed as a good article, but was removed from the listing because I'm not too clear on the references situation. A 'selected bibliography' implies either that only some of the references used are actually listed, or that it's just a further reading list and none of the books listed were necessarily used as references. This should be clarified, and a full references section included. Worldtraveller 23:44, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

The Selective Bibliography has been renamed References and updated accordingly. Ed_Solomon 13:19, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Slide Trumpet =? Soprano Trombone

There was a submission to WP:AFC today, Wikipedia:Articles for creation/2006-03-28#Slide Trumpet. I don't know much about brass instruments, and have read conflicting information about whether the two instruments are the same. If they are, would someone please make a redirect from Slide trumpet here, and, if helpful, merge any of the submission's content to the Soprano section. If they are different, a separate article should be made for the slide trumpet. In either case, if any of the AfC text is used, please credit User:67.166.31.109 in the edit summary. Thanks. ×Meegs 22:04, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

A slide trumpet is not a trombone. Whilst the term is often incorrectly applied to the soprano trombone, the slide trumpet is a separate and distinct instrument from the soprano trombone and should be listed under a separate article. Ed_Solomon 10:07, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

The slide trumpet predated the invention of the trombone. There are many pitches of slide trumpet. During the time of the Renaissance many trumpets were in the same range as the modern trombone. --Dbolton 19:26, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

GA review

I have removed this from the good articles nominations page. This is not necessarily because it is not good, but because a single-person review cannot really be much use for an article that's 55kb long. I'd suggest that's probably too long, and you should read it through very critically and try to make it as concise as possible, but for a more effective review you should list the article on peer review, possibly with a view to nominating it for featured status. Worldtraveller 16:00, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Why was this removed?

Apropos of what the tbn is like when playing with the plug: "In fact, there are only six real positions available to the player, since the slide is too short for what is now really a trombone in F." Why was this removed? Is it actually wrong?? Thanks, Nevilley 00:03, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

In the absence of any reply to that, I've restored the sentence. It seems odd, as the anonymous editor's other work on the piece seemed sensible. I'd be delighted to discuss it. Nevilley 21:31, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

I checked this on my tenor trombine (a Conn 88) and it's not true. The slide is plenty long enough to reach 7th position when playing in F. So I removed the claim. (Maybe there are trombones with slides that are too short to play in F? But then why would anyone buy such an ill-made instrument?) Gdr 11:35, 2004 Jul 25 (UTC)

The slide stays the same length. With the F attachment enabled, 7th position is a G. PlatinumX 18:34, Jul 25, 2004 (UTC)

The slide stays the same length, but the positions get longer - by a ratio of 4/3. If you work it out, 7th position (B/F#) is off the end of the slide by 10 cm or so, and 6th (C/G) is just about on it, with a little bending of the note down. Either Gdr is bending the note down a long way artificially or s/he is using the incorrect sense given by PlatinumX above. I've restored the sentence - the original was correct.Dave Taylor

As Dave Taylor noted, the 6 positions allowed inside the valve are in different than those outside it. Because "6th position" (C/G) is just on the end of the slide, it is referred to as a flat or lowered 7th position. In a similar manner the 6 positions inside the valve are known relative to the Bb slide positions: 1st, flat 2nd, flat 3rd, 5th, flat 6th, flat 7th, where it is understood that flat 3rd and flat 7th are lowered considerably more than flat 2nd or 6th. I think this may be noteworthy, or at least that there is what is known as a "7th position" inside the trigger, even though it is actually the 6th playable one. Thechuck 09:55, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

You're not wrong, but it has always been more useful for me to consider (and teach) that there are more like 5.5 trigger positions, labelled simply T1 through T5 plus a T6 that almost always requires the note to be lipped down in order to be in tune (i.e. the C two leger lines below the bass clef staff in "T6"). I have yet to encounter a model of trombone in which this was not the case, and indeed some seem to require pulling the attachment's tuning slide out in order to get that last note in tune, which, in turn, makes T1 an interesting proposition. =) --Jemiller226 19:08, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The information I recently posted was taken off. It is the same information listed above. And the picture has been changed back to Tenor Trombone in Bb. That is not correct. That is a Concert Instrument, and its title should be Tenor Trombone in C (for concert). I have been trying to clear this up, but it isn't working. I would appreciate feedback on why my information is getting repeatedly taken off. Thank you. --Robert P. Cline (Peytonio) 02:37, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

---

A lot more info could be added to the "Playing the Trombone" section. For example, slide position charts, and a discussion of how slurring is different on the trombone than on other brass instruments. Hrothgar137 —Preceding undated comment added 15:11, 19 March 2005 (UTC)

Valve trombone

I changed the sentence about the attack behaviour of the valve trombone. It is not a result of the trumpet-like shape (a valve trombone is shaped just like a slide trombone, except for the slide), but rather of the valves adding extra curves to the air stream, causing a higher airflow resistance - this is what some people describe as trumpet-like: the trumpet has a higher resistance by nature, due to smaller tubes, plus the valves. For similar reasons, I myself prefer a slide trombone without an F extension valve. 83.247.53.164 16:54, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Split

At 59 kb, this article is just a little too big: see Wikipedia:Article size. I propose moving the "types" section into its own article, Types of trombones. I will go ahead with this unless anyone objects. Dar-Ape 22:00, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

non-English names for the instrument

RobertG has deleted the list of non-English names on the grounds that it doesn't belong in the lead, and isn't necessary anyway. I accidnetally reverted earlier, and he's since restored his change. I'd say it does serve some purpose as the non-English names are (particularly the German) used in piece names (my long-neglected copy of the Hindemith sonata is entitled Sonata für Posaune und Klavier as I remember) and scores, and it wasn't really in the lead, but an extension to the infobox. Thoughts? David Underdown 19:03, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree that having the translations would be useful because the names of the trombone in other languages are often used in scores and on individual parts. I think it should be reincluded above the infobox (akin to trumpet), but I will wait to see if Robert still disagrees. Dar-Ape 19:43, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I am certain that this information does not belong in the lead, even if it belongs in the article at all. Wikipedia is not a German-English or French-English dictionary. If people are going to search for "Posaune" because they've seen it in their score then would a redirect from Posaune be more helpful? I think by all means have a section on "Trombone" in other languages (or some more elegant title) with an explanation of why such a section is relevant ("in published scores instruments are often given by their German/Italian/French names") but if this is the rationale, I see no need for even mentioning Swedish, Finnish, Polish or Japanese, and French and Italian for "Trombone" is "Trombone". --RobertG ♬ talk 09:12, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes to taking it out of the lead (I'd misremembered on that point), but restore at least some of them to the infobox. Creating the redirects would probably also be a good idea, as for the fact that the orthography is the same in some of the languages - that in itself is useful knowledge I'd say. David Underdown 09:57, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

"Counterpart of trumpet" line not really accurate

Near the beginning of the article, it says : "The most frequently encountered trombones are the tenor and bass counterparts of the trumpet." Presumably this refers to tenor and bass trombone, but: there is such a thing as a bass trumpet, and it is both (a) a better candidate for the title of "bass counterpart of the trumpet," and (b) nothing like a bass trombone. Similarly, a tenor trombone is not really like a tenor trumpet. So I think this line is misleading.

---

From the New Grove Encyclopaedia of Music:

"A brass lip-reed aerophone with a predominantly cylindrical bore. The most common trombones are the tenor and bass counterparts of the trumpet. In its most familiar form the trombone is characterized by a telescopic slide with which the player varies the length of the tube; hence the term 'slide trombone' (Fr. trombone à coulisse, Ger. Zugposaune, It. trombone a tiro; Fr. and Eng. up to the 18th century, saqueboute, sackbut). Both the Italian and German names for trombone are derived from terms for trumpet: trombone (large trumpet) from the Italian tromba (trumpet), and Posaune from Buzûne, derived in turn from the French buisine (straight trumpet)."

I don't think that there is anything incorrect in what is stated in the New Grove Encyclopaedia of Music or paraphrased in the Wikipedia article on the trombone. A bass trumpet is not technically a bass, but a tenor trumpet anyway. To be categorised as a true bass, the instrument would have to play down to C2, which it cannot. Are we going to re-invent the name of the bass trumpet while we are about it? I think not. It seems sensible to keep the paraphrased wording from the New Grove as this is both accurate and relevant. Ed_Solomon 18:20, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

I was just reading the above quotation from Grove's and trying to make sense of the tenor/bass/trumpet sentence. It seems singularly confusing, especially to someone unfamiliar with either instrument. As far as I can tell, it is pointing out that the most common trombones (alto and tenor?) are pitched as a tenor and bass trumpet would be. I am a professional musician/composer/arranger and I'm confused... Pity the unsuspecting neophyte stumbling upon this sentence. Special-T 00:26, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

The most common trombones are the tenor and bass trombones, which do correspond to what is stated in the New Grove. I can't see how that is misleading. In orchestral terms, the trumpet is a soprano instrument, the trombone either a tenor or bass instrument and on occasion an alto when scored for. Thus the appelation "tenor and bass counterparts of the trumpet" is quite accurate as these instruments are all related and form the cylindrical brass choir of the orchestra. Ed_Solomon 10:10, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

It is technically accurate, but misleading or not sufficiently informative in several regards. First, to have the first sentence of an encyclopedia article equate trombones with trumpets without explaining that the nature of their relationship is in the cylindrical shape of their bore seems a little disingenuous. After all, the first objection (unanswered here) of 99% of readers would be "but trumpets have valves and trombones have slides". Yes, we all know that this isn't their defining attribute, but I think that merits clarification. Second, not explaining the use of soprano/tenor/bass to refer to instruments pitched an octave apart could be confusing in understanding the stated relationship to trumpet. Again,it's accurate, but it borders on trade jargon to non-musicians. Third, not listing tenor and bass trombone as the "most common" trombones. I leave this article to those more qualified to edit it, but I found this confusing or under-explained, and I bet there are many others who would also. Special-T 19:30, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

This sentence grated on me the first time I read it and still does several months later. I simply don't feel it's clear enough, because (if I have understood the arguments correctly) they are counterparts only in the narrow sense that they both have a predominantly cylindrical bore (and perhaps, also, only in the narrow setting of an orchestral brass section? Though some musical groups besides orchestras do use trumpets and trombones together in a similar way, there are others that don't - British brass bands, for example). All that Ed says is quite correct, and I wouldn't want to be arguing with Grove ;-), but I feel a little more explanation would improve it, particularly as it's in the introductory section of the article. May I suggest the following?

The most frequently encountered trombones are the tenor and bass trombones, which - together with the trumpets - form the cylindrical brass choir of the orchestra. In this musical setting, the tenor and bass trombones may be regarded as the tenor and bass counterparts of the trumpet.

If I was confident that this was an improvement I'd change the article itself, but I'd welcome any comments on here first! 132.244.246.25 10:05, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I have changed the lead paragraphs in an attempt at clarity. - Special-T 14:39, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Special-T. I like what you've done there. 132.244.246.25 12:58, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Additions to the article?

If someone has the time:

1) Historical origins circa 1400 (slide brass instrument - Rome)

I found this on Al's Tenor Horn Page: Given the best evidence, which by all accounts is very much incomplete, the earliest trombone, called the sackbutt and similar names in England, seems to have emerged from Belgium circa 1450. Though the earliest examples of this instrument date to a century later (circa 1550), direct references to musicians and their instruments, and surviving artwork, both establish the existence of the saxbutt circa 1450.

The bells of these earliest instruments terminated in a rimless funnel little wider than 5" in diameter (13cm). Like the modern trombone, these were a tenor instrument, and by the early 17th century there was an alto, a bass and a contrabass version.

These early instruments often came with a variety of crooks, to lower the pitch a tone or more, or in some cases to drop the range of a particular instrument to the next register. Mike McDonald

2) Syllabic method for register change (arching of the back of the tongue to achieve greater air pressure)

3) Soprano Trombone (perhaps link to Moravian trombone Ensemble tradition in America)

Thanks

Greenmrt 20:34, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

About Images

I propose an image of a tenor trombone to replace the first image of the Conn 88 which has some copyright issue. I am the one who made this computer graphics Bach Stradivarius trombone model 42 AG after my own trombonefdtdyxtduhgskgdhdjdhdjxbdjfbcbjxnxnfhngndrhkdgdhx.

Tenor trombone with Bb/F trigger

--FlamM 20:41, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

I've exchanged the Conn 88H for a generic tenor trombone. Hopefully this will avoid any further copyright issues. Ed_Solomon 22:05, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

I've replaced the first image of the trombone with the generic straight tenor trombone photo. This is really the most appropriate way of showing the trombone the first time the reader views the page. Images of other sizes, shapes and valve/slide combinations are further down the page with a simple, straight tenor trombone (the most common variety) first. Ed_Solomon 08:45, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

The diagram a short distance down the page is incorrect. the slide lock, number 9, is not located where the slide and bell section join, it is just below the mouthpiece. the slide lock prevents the slide from falling off when you dont want it to. i do not know the name of the section that is pointed to by number 9, i dont know if it even has a name, but it is not the slide lock ring. 203.173.2.174 05:03, 10 May 2007 (UTC) michael

Jack Teagarden's trombone in a glass?

Hello. I was interested in learning more about a technique popularized by Jack Teagarden, but your article doesn't say anything about it. Since I know nothing about the trombone, better give you some references I found than try and write something myself:

• " One of Jack [Teagarden]'s specialties was to remove the bell section of the trombone and play the slide section into a water glass, producing an eerie, bluesy sound. " in http://www.jazzstandards.com/compositions-2/stjamesinfirmary.htm
• " [...] a proven crowd-pleasing vaudeville trick: using a water glass in place of the trombone's chamber and flared bell, which produced an ethereal, plaintive sound–and here, in the Infirmary, some rasping, ascending and descending buzzes, the anguished inner voice of a mourner. " in http://www.texasobserver.org/article.php?aid=1347

Maybe someone knowledgeable could write a section about trombone special tricks and techniques, that would include this one among others? And a picture of Teagarden performing it would be great. 62.147.38.254 14:46, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

B-flat (♭ vs b)

   The tenor trombone has a fundamental note of B♭ [...]

There have been some edits and rv's about the flat character. In UTF-8, there is ♭, but not all browsers or systems recognize that. Instead, you can write: Bb. I think the latter option is for the best...

Or you could write B-flat, like you did above :) Merphant 20:40, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Come now. I could show you a ton of articles that have characters much more arcane than '♭' (Chinese, anyone?) and I don't see anyone going around "fixing" all of those. I understand the sentiment, but a 'b' is not a flat, and talking about B-flats and E-flats gets clunky in a hurry. In fact, look down: lots of UTF-8-only characters down there, and a template to put at the top of the page signifying that the article contains them. I see that as carte blanche to use them as we wish as long as we warn readers, and as soon as I get a minute, that's precisely what I'll do. Jemiller226 18:20, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Manual of Style (music) recommends Unicode sharps and flats or written out text. Using {{music|flat}} or {{music|♭}} will reduce display issues with the Unicode characters. See Template:Music for details.--Dbolton 05:14, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Popular culture necessary?

The entire Popular culture section is unencyclopedic and reads like a middle-school lunchroom discussion. Surely putting a reference to everything with the word "trombone" in it doesn't add to this encyclopedia. I'm checking here for input before removing this section, but it seems completely inane. - Special-T 01:55, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Remove. It is inane. Of course, when diligence is relaxed, inanity returns. That's the thing about Wikipedia; all work is for naught, given enough time. Zzorse 13:39, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

As Percy Shelly points out, that's true of every human endeavour. Collabi 22:53, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

History section

While informative, the sections on the history of the trombone aren't very useful without in-text citations... Where did the information come from? Thechuck 21:02, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

New article created on Bb/F trombone

Someone has created F_attachment_tenor_trombone. I guess it should be deleted and its content merged into this article. 132.244.246.25 07:49, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and it's listed in Category:Brass_instruments too. 132.244.246.25 07:50, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

converted to redirect to Types of trombones#The F attachment David Underdown 09:40, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Pryor

Arthur Pryor probably does merit a mention somewhere, but not in the para listing composers writing for it as a symphonic instrument. His pieces seem to more in line the cornet solos that were popular in the early 20th century, so probably belong more in the para on solo writing, btu I can't immediately think how to word it. David Underdown (talk) 10:48, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Back to Bb vs. C

I am adding a sentence to the first paragraph that will, I hope, clarify by mentioning that: 1. The most common trombone is the tenor trombone, pitched in Bb, and 2. trombone music is generally written in concert pitch. They are, most emphatically, not pitched in C. - Special-T (talk) 23:47, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Good. Badagnani (talk) 23:58, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Also a reason it should stay to Bb is that the person who changes it only changes a part of it and messes up the rest of the information given --Antonio Lopez ^(talk) 00:11, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the info about E-flat and F trombones doesn't make any sense when B-flat trombones are changed to "C trombones." Badagnani (talk) 00:13, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Diagram incorrect

The following comment was added in the wrong topic:

The diagram a short distance down the page is incorrect. the slide lock, number 9, is not located where the slide and bell section join, it is just below the mouthpiece. the slide lock prevents the slide from falling off when you dont want it to. i do not know the name of the section that is pointed to by number 9, i dont know if it even has a name, but it is not the slide lock ring.

I completely agree. The part labled 9 is refered to as just "the nut" or "the connector nut" in my experience, although there is probably a more formal name. Someone with some time on their hands should download the photo and insert #10, pointing to the slide lock. In the diagram, the slide lock is the bulge below the mouthpiece, between the first and second slide braces. Of course, the caption should be changed accordingly. 71.243.47.202 (talk) 21:36, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Fixed it. While I was at it, I added a line pointing to the counterweight. __Just plain Bill (talk) 16:33, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Playing Range

On the top right of the introduction, there is a nice pictorial demonstrating the "Playing Range" of the trombone. The range indicated appears to be double pedal b-flat to super b-flat a remarkable range to be sure and accurate enough for the way it is headed (i.e. "'Playing' Range"). I wanted to point out however that said range is inaccurate, it can be eclipsed in both directions, and is misleading in regards to the nature of brass instruments. The nature of a brass instruments mouthpiece is such that it could concievably produce an immensely wide range of frequencies, given perhaps unnatural and certainly unusual, at least in the case of those who can break either ends of the given range. Not to be misunderstood, I am sure that there is some range which the lips are unable to produce low frequencies given the size of mouthpieces, mouths, trombones, etc. and futhermore some range at which the recquired pressure would immediately destroy lip tissues but still those extremes are not implied by the pictorial. As far as proof, I can think of no recording that demonstrates a double pedal A, but on several albums performed with his big band the Manhattan Wildlife Refuge, Bill Watrous far exceeds a super b-flat. This is my first post of any type on Wikipedia and I certainly have niether the skill nor the want to edit for such a triviality, but I thought that I might point out the fact.

I agree with your statements. The range, for the tenor trombone at least (as illustrated), should be restricted to E1 as the potential lowest note, with the main range from E2 (lowest fundamental) to D5 extending up to F5 as a potential highest note. The range I have quoted is the most realistic. Ed_Solomon 09:48, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Just a random question, should the top range of the trombone be shown in treble clef? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.19.74.167 (talk) 02:01, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Trombonist or tromboner

Someone has edited the introductory paragraph twice to change it to say that someone who plays the trombone is a "tromboner". I have changed it back to "trombonist" as this is what the Chambers Dictionary says (UK English - maybe US is different but I've never heard the term). Trombonist is also the term used in the rest of the article. It makes no sense to say "tromboner" in the first paragraph and then use "trombonist" afterwards, even if that is a possible name for a trombone player. Darkhorse06 (talk) 14:05, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

It's just silly vandalism that sadly occurs all too frequently. David Underdown (talk) 14:07, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Yup. It's a pre-teen boy thing, and not a bit new or clever. __Just plain Bill (talk) 20:45, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Ah yes. I was thinking about it on a completely different level. Should have spotted that. Darkhorse06 (talk) 13:28, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Non classical music

The article is infomative, well built, and interesting, but excludes almost completely the trombone's part in non classical music. I feel an article about the trombone can't be whole without mentioning the important part of the trombone in traditional jazz(Tailgate Trombone), it's part throughout the history of jazz, and rise as a solo instrument. Jack Teagarden and J. J. Johnson, both inovative and influential trombonists, are not mentioned. The trombone's use in Funk is not mentioned at all, as is Fred Wesley.

Trombone also has a part in early black church music. Udi Raz (talk) 21:16, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Request: trigger

Can someone please explain in the article what a trombone "trigger" is? It's mentioned in one of the sections of the article as if we're supposed to know what it is. So please explain it to someone who doesn't play trombone. Willi Gers07 (talk) 16:49, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

I can make an article on it if no on else is doing it. Where exactly should it go? I thought possibly trombone variations, but that area seems to be used for weird variations. BTW a trigger is used by the trombone player's thumb on the hand that moves the slide. When the trigger is pushed, the note goes down in pitch (i'm not sure how much however.) Cainine (talk) 22:45, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

No need to create a new article! "Trigger" is just another name for the valve on F (or Eb etc.) attachments on Tenor or Bass Trombones. See F attachment Trombone. Perhaps a note on that page, but no more. Justin Tokke (talk) 00:19, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

My problem is with this article. The word "trigger" appears twice, and both times it's used like you're supposed to know what it is. You trombonists do know what it is, but others who read this page probably don't. Willi Gers07 (talk) 20:05, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Right there in the Didactics section it says the trigger closes the C valve. What more needs to be said? __Just plain Bill (talk) 22:43, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

The section has been edited since I first brought this up. If I (a non-trombonist) understand this correctly, then maybe nothing more needs to be said: so the trigger is nothing more than a mechanism to allow beginners to reach sixth position notes without actually having to slide to sixth position? Willi Gers07 (talk) 21:04, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

No, no, no. The "trigger" is the rottary valve for the F attachment. The F attachment acts as a de facto replacement for 6th position because it has the same length of tubing. One of the consquences is that beginner can use it who can't reach fifth, but that's not its purpose. It's purpose is to extend the range of the instrument and give more slide options for versitility providing alternatives the cumbersome 6th and 7th positions. Justin Tokke (talk) 22:46, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Alright, I'm going to try one more time. The trigger is the switch that allows the player to change from the regular tubing to the tubing with F attachment? It's not the F attachment itself? Willi Gers07 (talk) 17:36, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes and no. It's just a matter of terminology. "F attachement" would be the extra tubing and the valve that operates it, the "trigger". So the valve is part of the F attachment, not a separate part of the trombone. I believe the reason for this is that straight trombones with no attachment don't have the valve, so its considered part of the attachment. But, as always, there are regional variations to this. I believe, however, this would be the most common and best explanation for trigger.Justin Tokke (talk) 19:42, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

I think I understand now. Thank you for being so patient with me on this. Hopefully either you or Bill or another trombonist will clarify the article accordingly. Willi Gers07 (talk) 17:43, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

The F attachment could stand some clarification for non-trombonists in the valve attachments section. The info is partly sort of there, but takes some digging between the lines to get at. I've only ever fooled around with a straight trombone, so not the best candidate to do the editing. If no one steps up to it soon (like in a few weeks) I might give it a try, but be ready to fix whatever I bend out of shape in the process... __Just plain Bill (talk) 23:31, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

The trigger is the part the player moves, so the valve allows air to go through the tubing of the F attachment. When the trigger is not pressed, the valve stays in its default position, leaving the F attachment out of action. Do players call the whole attachment the "trigger"? Perhaps, but I can't say for sure. I just deleted some unclear text about that. No time to wordsmith anything better for the article at the moment; it needs to be clear and accurate (and terse, since this terminology isn't that big of a deal.) __Just plain Bill (talk) 02:03, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't play trombone, so I'm not any kind of expert on this. The times I've heard trombonists talk, though, they toss that word around so much it's no big deal to them, and they don't think it's a big deal to anyone else. But it is a big deal to those who overhear it and it piques their curiosity. They should just ask the trombonists for an explanation. But instead they connect to Wikipedia, under the mistaken assumption that it would give information on any term specialists don't consider a big deal. Willi Gers07 (talk) 18:02, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Hmm. I just typed "trombone trigger" into that little box on the left, and hit "search." I see you fixed up the appropriate redirects last month. I just fixed another one. By "no big deal" here, I mean that the subject doesn't need much expansion beyond a word or two, and a link to where it is explained. __Just plain Bill (talk) 01:41, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

"Trigger" is used to describe tenor/bass and modern bass extensions by the catalog of the world's largest brass instrument manufacturer, Yamaha, so I worked on Brass_instrument#Trigger_or_Throw and also added a ref to a Bb/C student tenor to Trombone#Didactics. JacquesDelaguerre (talk) 05:51, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Still undefined

"The 'slide', the defining feature of the trombone (cf. valve trombone) allows the player...." Evidently, it is not whether an instrument has a slide which defines the trombone, since valve trombones are still called trombones. Unfree (talk) 02:41, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, valve trombones still have the slide, or at least a length of tubing which resembles the slide, though on most it doesn't move. Interesting point. The valve trombone is really a different instrument. Trombones go back to the late 1400's with the slide and the valve instrument is merely like a bass trumpet effectively, the defining aspect being that it's a low brass with predominately cylindrical tubing and a narrow bore. JacquesDelaguerre (talk) 17:27, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Glissando

The trombone doesn't really produce a glissando. The glissando is natural to the piano or harp and includes adjacent half-steps. This is the dictionary.com definition:

performed with a gliding effect by sliding one or more fingers rapidly over the keys of a piano or strings of a harp.

The trombone actually produces portamento the way a vocalist does. Portamento is movement from one note to another but produces all of the microtones between the notes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.174.52.33 (talk) 17:00, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

This definition of trombone glissando ("movement from one note to another producing all of the microtones between") bumps up against Zeno's Paradox. __ JacquesDelaguerre (talk) 17:10, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Poor Zeno. If only he'd studied his Cantor... Dave Taylor (talk) 10:46, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Ha! I was cleaning the basement and ran across Scientific American 271:5 (Nov. 1994) which has a great writeup on current approaches to Zeno's paradox. But Georg Cantor and his theory of infinite sets clearly has something to say about slide trombone! __JacquesDelaguerre (talk) 12:03, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Baritones from what I can remember were in the key of Bb not in the key of C

from what I remember from school band the baritone was inthe key of Bb not in the key of C plus I could play tenor sax music in the jazz band and didnt have to change my fingering from trumpet to play baritone ?? I dont know how to edit something on the page so I just put it here —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.232.48.221 (talk) 04:09, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

That's effectively what the most recent edits say: That normally baritones transpose in Bb in the treble clef like a trumpet but that experienced bari players can read trombone parts since they have the same nominal range. JacquesDelaguerre (talk) 15:44, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Baritone is an instrument often assigned when fitting beginners to horns when the student does not have the jaw/teeth or muscle control to handle the smaller trumpet mouthpiece. As this frequently happens after the student has already invested some time in learning to read music in the form of Bb trumpet parts, the student continues reading treble clef. Most band arrangements print the part in both. Those of us who began as baritone/euphonium players from the start (A Boosey Tenor horn actually, first shoved in my face at age 6 by Leonard Falcone), learned in bass clef but had to transpose C, Bb, Eb, F treble, alto and tenor clefs as required. At the end of the day, the horn is the same range as a trombone and the fundamental is a Bb - making it a Bb instrument. rwberndt (talk) 17:10 11 January 2011 —Preceding undated comment added 22:10, 11 January 2011 (UTC).

/* External links */

Every time I add a relevant link to a website that promotes the trombone through videos and multimedia; it gets removed. The site has thousands of trombone videos for viewers to watch and enjoy. None of the videos violates any copyright. The site does not spam. The site does not contain any bad codes. The site does not sell anything. I believe trombonetube.com is a great resource to allow visitors to see and hear all the various types of trombones and brass instruments. Please consider adding this wonderful resource.

No thanks. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 23:38, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

replacement picture

Is there any chance we can replace the picture of the disassembled slide trombone? I mean, the big moisture patches from the spit dripping out of it is sort of gross, if someone can take a picture of a dry one that would be nice. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.96.39.78 (talk) 09:13, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Playing range

In a change made recently, the "typical" tenor trombone range was changed from a lower bound of E1 to E2. Not being a trombone expert by any means, I'm reluctant to revert this change. I'm almost positive E1 is within a skilled trombonist's range, though, and the playing range image in the infobox seems to confirm this. --Mcmillin24 21:58, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Technically this is correct. E2 is the lowest note in the range of the straight tenor trombone without including "falset" or "privileged" notes or fundamentals. E1 is a fundamental in seventh position and is not usually considered part of the regular range of the tenor trombone. Ed_Solomon 22:23, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

The image for the range in the infobox is correct (except that I am not sure about the low end, but I have heard a contrabass trombone play a low C or C♯), but this range encompasses contrabass to alto trombones. I think this should be mentioned. --Number Googol (talk) 02:18, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I'd argue that the playing range is inaccurate. C1 & C2 should be surely be corrected to E1 & E2 assuming a standard no plug trombone or B1 & B2 for the full length of a trombone with F attachment. The C really means nothing, unless we are saying that the low B is unattainable? On a decent large bore tenor or bass trombone the low B can definitely be produced. If as suggested above you are trying to include contrabass trombone then the B should 100% be included in the 'extended' range. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.176.233.23 (talk) 23:47, 13 November 2011 (UTC) Sorry, I should clarify I am a composer and trombonist. I would edit myself if I knew how?! The point is the pedal B is just as ridiculous a note to produce as the C, but the B is the logical limit to the range whereas C seems like an opinion on the potential ability of a trombonist, which doesn't seem as robust. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.176.233.23 (talk) 23:55, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

pBone (Plastic trombone)

this new instrument is gaining quite a wide following and is a close brother of the trombone, thoughts? Smeowrend (talk) 00:29, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, a pBone is a trombone made of plastic. I've tooted one (a red one) that a fellow brought over to the house once. They seem to be catching on in the US and UK at least... maybe a line or two in this article would be appropriate. __ Just plain Bill (talk) 01:21, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

As an owner of one I can give annecdotal evidence of their popularity, baring in mind how difficult it is to get hold of one, because they sell out before they are made, they are a budget option for students, and a great toy/dodgy pub gig trombone. originally only £50 for the UK audience, now up a little, and the product is endorsed by tromboning legend Jiggs Wiggham. Certainly worth a mention. Smeowrend (talk) 01:48, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

I've seen mention of them as good horns for "pep band" use. That's in the context of school football as played in the US, often in dodgy autumn weather. Game play is not stopped for light snowfall, for example. Also, school colours ftw. __ Just plain Bill (talk) 02:05, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

suggestion for Pop Culture reference

I was rather surprised not to see the song "76 Trombones" from The Music Man not included. 172.145.75.7 10:51, 13 January 2007 (UTC)RKH

Excellent point, I have added it. Remember that you can also be bold and simply add it yourself!  :-) Dar-Ape 22:06, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

No! The curse of the smilies strikes again!!--Kevin mills 01:28, 22 March 2007 (UTC)Kevin_millls

Another suggestion - That one noise. The two-note noise that is played upon the reveal of a joke, to signify the victim has fallen for it. I have no idea what this is called, just that it should be here! 74.132.249.206 (talk) 00:17, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Manufacturers

Dear Sirs,

there is a very traditional manufacturer company Stablished in Brazil in 1909, they manufacture wind instruments in large scale and sell worldwide, their trombones are very popular in Brazil and are played around the world.

Roberto — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.26.106.6 (talk) 04:31, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Time for an organization, methinks?

Check out the flute, clarinet, and saxophone... Those pages are much better organized than this. Reading the trombone wiki, it's pretty disjointed, even just adding headers would probably help quite a bit.

So, I hereby request an update, to be done by someone who has the time and inclination to do so.

in all honesty, it kinda fits trombonists that I know (myself included) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.124.173.132 (talk) 02:26, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Tailgating / tailgate trombone

Somewhere on Wikipedia the phrase tailgate trombone and tailgating should be discussed. __meco (talk) 10:53, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Centuries Old Trombone Image?

The image added in the 20th century orchestras, is not a trombone. It appears to be a Baritone. Should it be removed or relocated? I have never edited a wikipedia page, and didn't want to simply edit without getting other input. Mattdukes (talk) 02:18, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Candidate for splitting into two articles?

Should we have an article for the Tenor Trombone and one for the Bass Trombone? -- Daniel Jones (talk) 14:02, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

And another one for the alto trombone if this was an encyclopedia devoted to orchestration. Willi Gers07 (talk) 15:11, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

I like this idea. I am a trombone player and have had arrangers talk to me about the range of a trombone. They've referenced wikipedia to understand the range of the instrument. Couple of problems with that. 1. The range, I believe is stated for the family of trombone instruments. A bass trombone would have great difficulty playing the high F above C (even the C for that matter). Tenor trombones would be hard pressed to reach the low pedal C listed, especially with out an F attachment. 2. The skill of the player largely dictates the range of the instrument. For most players the practical range of the tenor trombone is much narrower than what is written. This has lead to problems with arrangers writing outside the realistic range of the instrument. This is frustrating for them because of the time and effort they put into their arrangements. It is frustrating for players, especially beginners, because they see notes written they can't play. I would propose at the very least breaking up the range by type of trombone (alto, tenor, bass).Mattdukes (talk) 02:34, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Pitch/Transposition

We need to get this clear about the build and pitch of the instrument; I see from the History that it has already been back and forth a couple of times, and it would be a shame if Trombone Pitch Wars (TM) were to ensue.

TO CLEAR UP CONFUSION
I am the one that entered the information about the pitching variances. I was a brass player in a local band, playing mainly trombone, but trumpet and euphonium as well (and I now practice every now and then to not lose my touch). A trombone is a "concert pitched" instrument, which basically means its notes follow those of a piano. If you play a Bb on the trombone and a Bb on a piano, they are the same note. Some people, instead of saying Concert-Pitched trombones (since there are different types), they say trombones in C (meaning concert). Most trumpets are called Bb trumpets because of their pitching. They are not in concert pitch. If they play a C, then the are really playing a Bb if it were on a piano. On a French horn in F, it works the same way. The horn's F note would be the same as playing the Bb 7 semitones below the F on a piano. For Alto and Baritone Saxophones pitched in Eb, (this is kind of weird) their G would be the same as playing the Bb 9 semitones below the G on a piano as well. I admit, my wording was a bit screwed up, but this is what I was trying to get through. Sorry for the confusion. I will most likely re-post the information that was taken off and write it in a more easily understandable comparison. --RPC (Peytonio) 19:39, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

The information I recently posted was taken off. It is the same information listed above. And the picture has been changed back to Tenor Trombone in Bb. That is not correct. That is a Concert Instrument, and its title should be Tenor Trombone in C (for concert). I have been trying to clear this up, but it isn't working. I would appreciate feedback on why my information is getting repeatedly taken off. I am also going to post this in the next section because there aren't many replies for this one. Thank you. --Robert P. Cline (Peytonio) 02:25, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

It is not correct to have, as we did till recently:

• The standard tenor trombone, pitched in C,

I do know what the writer meant but it just isn't that simple. Sure it plays in C insofar as it is (usually) a non-transposing instrument, but I think the terminology "pitched in" carries with it a more fundemental label about the instrument and how it was built - the length of the tube. If I take a tbn out of the case and play the easiest couple of notes I can, without moving the slide, I'll get Bbs and maybe Fs - a patently B flattish lot of notes. If I want Cs I have to go to 6th position (or maybe 3rd if I try a bit harder!). It just isn't "pitched" in C.

To attempt to work round this I have tried to separate out the built pitch from the way its played by mentioning both. I think this works quite well. If people insist on mentioning only one pitch at that point in the article (given that this is explained better, later) then it should almost certainly be Bb. Nevilley 08:35 Nov 5, 2002 (UTC)

I feel absolutely compelled to fix this discrepancy with, "...is also pitched in a nontransposing B♭." Any mention of C is just plain incorrect apart from the possibility of mentioning that playing a written C produces a sounding C. Sorry, my trombone performance degree is getting the better of me, here. =) --Jemiller226 19:29, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think your solution is a good one, and I've tried to do something similar at key (music) - I'm not sure if these terms are widely used though (an instrument being "built" in a certain key, I mean) and maybe there's a better way. This will certainly do for now, however. --Camembert

Thanks - if a better solution presents itself we can always rethink it all a bit! :) Nev.

This is a good and workable solution. I will be checking with a PhD Music Theory friend about this soon. :) - Psssycho

oh and wrt to Tarquin's bit above, there is a horrendous story doing the rounds at the moment about a trombonist accidentally killing the tpt player in front with the slide! Not really encyclopedic material I hasten to add, but ... blimey! Nevilley 15:22 Nov 23, 2002 (UTC)

Looks like something similar was reported a while ago in the inestimable Weekly World News - see [1]. I remember them printing a story once about a chess player who thought too hard about one of his moves, causing his brain to explode. Reuters they ain't ;) --Camembert

I've had a quick google around just out of curiosity. In English all you find are copies of the same story with the same wording, mostly on humour pages. In German you find nothing at all. Conclusion: great story, but fictitious! :) Nevilley

The article currently says "The tenor trombone has a fundamental note of B♭, which means that it is pitched in concert key, or C key, while other instruments like trumpets and clarinets are pitched in B♭, which means that their fundamental note is a C". I checked the history, and as is stated above, metioning C here is incorrect. It is pitched in the Bb harmonic series, not C. Also, it is doubly incorrect by saying Trumpets' fundamental note is C. The trumpet is also pitched in the Bb harmonic series, the only difference is that they read a C when they are playing a Bb.

---

Coming back to this from Camembert:

I'm not sure if these terms are widely used though (an instrument being "built" in a certain key, I mean)

It's tricky, isn't it - I mean, I know what it means, but I spend much of my life worrying about these things so I am hardly an impartial judge. I have recently seen your Key article and I think that covers or starts to cover it very well - what has to be got over is the relationship between the physical fact of its length/setup/whatever, and the way we choose to play it. A Bb tpt being built in Bb and yes, dammit, it's about 4'6" long so that's what comes out the end when you blow the accursed thing!!! I am almost sure we've got quite a lot of the right material here, in one place and another. :) Nevilley

It's chewy, as you say, but I don't think we're in too bad shape at the moment. I can't think of a better way of putting it than saying such and such an instrument is built in such and such a key - maybe "a Bb trumpet has a fundamental of Bb" or something? I really don't know though - you don't have to worry about this sort of stuff when you play the fiddle ;) --Camembert

---

Could someone add something about those bowl things some players use? What exactly are they, and what do they do? CGS 14:08, 18 Aug 2003 (UTC).

I guess you mean mutes. I'll add a mention. --Camembert

I appreciate Peytonio's desire to explain the trombone 'Bb vs. C' issue, but I don't think it needs much more explanation than is currently in the article. This is an area which can very easily become extremely confusing if not explained clearly and logically. Some misconceptions and confusions to avoid:

- Trombones are not 'pitched in C'. They are pitched in Bb with their notes written at concert pitch.

- 'C' does not stand for 'concert', it represents the pitch (note) 'C'.

- There is a separate article on Transposing instruments - no need to explain it here.

- In a nutshell: "As a rule, instruments pitched in keys other than C are transposing instruments. Not so with the tenor trombone; although built basically around the harmonic series of Bb, it sounds as written." - Kent Kennan, "The Technique of Orchestration"

I hope this helps. Special-T 03:25, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

• I agree that I worded it rather confusing. It is probably not necessary to explain the transposing "scheme" on here because it could be confusing to others. I was trying to say (in simpler terms) that the trombone (along with the flute, oboe, bassoon, euphonium, and tuba) is a concert-pitched instrument, meaning that what you play is what you hear. A "C" on a trombone sounds like a "C" in actuality. The same goes for every other note played on the instrument. This is why most musical pieces, if distinguishing between different types of trombones, would write "Trombone in C" to distinguish it from a "Bb Trombone." Bb trombone, like Bb trumpet, signifies that the instrument is a transposing one, in that a "C" on a trumpet would sound like a "Bb" 2 semitones below the "C" in actuality (hence the name Bb Trumpet). The French Horn, for instance, is called the Horn in F (most common pitching) because a "C" on it sounds like an "F" 7 semitones below the "C" in actuality (this horn is pitched in fifths from other instruments, in that the "C" is the fifth note of the "F" scale -- F, G, A, Bb, C). It would probably be best if this stay off, I must say, because it gets jumbled up a bit (if you can't already tell). --RPC (Peytonio)

---

I think the current wording of the article is good. A brass instrument is categorized by the fundamental note that the instrument will play when its overall length is made as short as possible i.e. with no valves pressed and/or the slide fully closed as appropriate. A standard trumpet with no valves pressed will play concert Bb, therefore is said to be a Trumpet in Bb. A French horn will play concert F, therefore is said to be a horn in F. A tenor trombone with the slide fully closed will play concert Bb, therefore is said to be a Trombone in Bb. The issue of what transposition is conventionally used in written music for the instrument is an entirely separate matter and yes as we all know, music for trombone is usually written in concert pitch, no transposition applied. Ofiachain (talk) 18:01, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Who thinks it would be a good idea to list the Allstate Band Audition Requirements for Trombone on here? That would be a great help to many people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.192.151.233 (talk) 00:09, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

First description of chromatic positions

Diff

Found on Trombone forum:

"When it was thought of as standing in A, contemporaneous methods described the tenor as having four diatonic positions, with, in particular, a floating first position. Contrast this with the newer concept described by André Braun's Gamme et méthode pour les trombonnes (c. 1795) (but very probably introduced earlier in 18th century Vienna) in which he describes the tenor trombone as being constructed in Bb and having seven chromatic slide positions, including a closed first position. This was, at the time, revolutionary. Whilst the older technique may have sufficed for the likes of Speer, Schütz, Monteverdi and the Gabrielis, it is clear that by the time Mozart and Haydn were writing for the trombone, their concept of the trombone was that of a completely chromatic instrument."

From Will Kimball:

"c. 1795—France: Trombonist André Braun publishes Gamme et Méthode pour let Trombones, the first complete modern method book written specifically for trombone. It also contains the first description of a tenor trombone in B-flat with seven chromatic positions..."

__ Just plain Bill (talk) 04:33, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, I went in and clarified the Andre Braun info, will go back later today and mention the significance of the modern method. --Adam Blake (talk) 17:06, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Feathering valve?

Is that like venting the valve so it doesn't pop when triggered or released? I've never touched a trigger trombone, so all I "know" is based on internet reading. I'd be gratified to see a sentence or two in the article explaining this. __Just plain Bill (talk) 14:49, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

Never mind. It seems to be confusion in a translation from German, where Feder can mean either "feather" or "spring". I've made a first attempt at fixing the section. Some helpful person will be along soon, I hope, to remedy whatever I've screwed up in the process. __Just plain Bill (talk) 03:30, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Whats the sound called when a trombone plays ffff?

You all know that trombones have the best effect when they play fff. the tone gets bright and brillaint. but what is the tone called? someones say split someone saing blat but whats the right word fort that?

We don't all know that because it isn't true. That is an opinion, and one not held by the majority I suspect. A split is when the tone isn't focused and the player produces the note on one side of the harmonic or the other, usually just before hitting the intended note.

It doesn't really have a name. It is just a trombone playing loudly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.188.125.221 (talk) 05:06, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Trombone. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added {{dead link}} tag to http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/ContentDetail/ModelSeriesDetail.html?CNTID=2265&CTID=242600
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080813021118/http://royalschoolsources.com/brass/trombone/trombone.html to http://royalschoolsources.com/brass/trombone/trombone.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 22:48, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

A trombone and a plunger were used to generate the voice of Charlie Brown's teacher.

Did someone view this as non-notable? Sarsaparilla (talk) 00:49, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

It's a harmon mute, not a plunger.JohnMason (talk) 20:18, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

started a bit of the reorganization

I added a 'construction' section that completed the previous partial description of the trombone. I took out the bit about the trombone is the French word for paperclip as it seemed a bit to tangential. I will try to get a position chart put together as well as some points that might be useful for composers and arrangers.

I'm back - I have a user id now: Ph11 - In an attempt to make the article more readable for people who don't know (or want to know) that much about trombones in the first place.

how about silver under 'construction'? or are silver trombones only silver plated? --pfunk42 04:15, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

---

"Silver" trombones have always been silver plated. Silver is far too expensive and soft a metal to use exclusively for building the instrument. Ed_Solomon 15:06, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

My understanding has always been that King Silversonic trombones have bell flares made of sterling silver, not silver plated brass. JohnMason (talk) 20:40, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

I play trombone and it is the lightest weight brass instrument. It is very fun to play but requires a lot of cleaning. The Holton trombone by Leblanc works best in my opinion. Adolph 172 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adolph172 (talk • contribs) 20:27, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Slide positions

Could a knowlegeable trombonist mention the positions of the slide, and the in-joke that 8th (?) position actually means that the slide has flown right out and brained the viola section? ;-) -- Tarquin

The trombone has 7 positions. I've never heard of the joke. Most trombonists know exactly how far their slide goes, so they wouldn't make the mistake of getting to "8th" position. It is, however, possible to hurt somebody if you're not careful.

Yeah, I accidentally did that when I was a young trombonist. It was before I had my F attachment trombone (the one with the extra tubing that has the valve), and I had to use 7th position during a rehearsal on a new song we were sightreading. Well, I put it at 7th and nailed this one guy in the head (he had a fro, so it cushioned SOME of it, but it hurt a lot anyways). Then, the next day I launched my slide while we were marching to that same song... I am afraid to say the slide lost when it his the bleachers. Just FYI... don't launch your slide! --Robert P. Cline (Peytonio) 15:09, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Heh, I can relate a story passed on to my big band by one of our guest artistés, I can't exactly recall who. Anyway, another big band had been rehearsing for a gig with a soloist, and one of the trombones managed to lose their slide - so much so it slid under the saxes and ended up between the soloist's feet. He picked it up, turned round and said "This belong to any of you guys?" to which, quick as a whip, the trombonist replied "It's one of the trumpeter's, give it here and I'll pas it back to him..." Rawling 00:23, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to see an illustration of the positions and one of the parts in the article. PrometheusX303 21:09, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

well, in my highschool band, we concider the last little bit before the slide actually comes off to be a falseto 8th position...used to play the C above peddle Bflat.

ive had a slide come out of my hand while playing the alma matter and it got a dent when it met the bleachers...now i use a lightweight nickle slide, and have no trouble with dents. and in jazz band i have been known to take my slide off while polaying, hit the bass guitar player in the back of the head for messin up, put the slide back and continue playing

Slide position chart; most trombones are tenor trombones, like the valveless one in the middle.

PrometheusX303, I uploaded a PD image. The resolution stinks; it's barely legible. I'll look at fitting it into the article. You might like these slide position photos on the German Wikipedia better, though. It has a later version which is more photographic and less diagrammatic. HLHJ (talk) 04:55, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

Under the "Types" section, the following line appears: "The second trigger facilitates playing the otherwise problematic low B." In my experience playing the bass trombone, the second trigger no more facilitates the playing of low B than the first trigger does as both can be used to simulate 7th position with ease. As I've never edited an article, I'd like to not make any changes to the article. I contend that the second trigger is useful for playing notes below the staff, commonly referred to as peddle notes or tones. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:E000:170D:8493:D1BD:D907:7C09:6428 (talk) 06:15, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

Slide positions

Could a knowlegeable trombonist mention the positions of the slide, and the in-joke that 8th (?) position actually means that the slide has flown right out and brained the viola section? ;-) -- Tarquin

The trombone has 7 positions. I've never heard of the joke. Most trombonists know exactly how far their slide goes, so they wouldn't make the mistake of getting to "8th" position. It is, however, possible to hurt somebody if you're not careful.

Yeah, I accidentally did that when I was a young trombonist. It was before I had my F attachment trombone (the one with the extra tubing that has the valve), and I had to use 7th position during a rehearsal on a new song we were sightreading. Well, I put it at 7th and nailed this one guy in the head (he had a fro, so it cushioned SOME of it, but it hurt a lot anyways). Then, the next day I launched my slide while we were marching to that same song... I am afraid to say the slide lost when it his the bleachers. Just FYI... don't launch your slide! --Robert P. Cline (Peytonio) 15:09, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Heh, I can relate a story passed on to my big band by one of our guest artistés, I can't exactly recall who. Anyway, another big band had been rehearsing for a gig with a soloist, and one of the trombones managed to lose their slide - so much so it slid under the saxes and ended up between the soloist's feet. He picked it up, turned round and said "This belong to any of you guys?" to which, quick as a whip, the trombonist replied "It's one of the trumpeter's, give it here and I'll pas it back to him..." Rawling 00:23, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to see an illustration of the positions and one of the parts in the article. PrometheusX303 21:09, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

well, in my highschool band, we concider the last little bit before the slide actually comes off to be a falseto 8th position...used to play the C above peddle Bflat.

ive had a slide come out of my hand while playing the alma matter and it got a dent when it met the bleachers...now i use a lightweight nickle slide, and have no trouble with dents. and in jazz band i have been known to take my slide off while polaying, hit the bass guitar player in the back of the head for messin up, put the slide back and continue playing

Slide position chart; most trombones are tenor trombones, like the valveless one in the middle.

PrometheusX303, I uploaded a PD image. The resolution stinks; it's barely legible. I'll look at fitting it into the article. You might like these slide position photos on the German Wikipedia better, though. It has a later version which is more photographic and less diagrammatic. HLHJ (talk) 04:55, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

Under the "Types" section, the following line appears: "The second trigger facilitates playing the otherwise problematic low B." In my experience playing the bass trombone, the second trigger no more facilitates the playing of low B than the first trigger does as both can be used to simulate 7th position with ease. As I've never edited an article, I'd like to not make any changes to the article. I contend that the second trigger is useful for playing notes below the staff, commonly referred to as peddle notes or tones. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:E000:170D:8493:D1BD:D907:7C09:6428 (talk) 06:15, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

Tidy up

This article is a bit uneven. For example, on one hand there's ludicrous detail about tubing bore diameters, upper partial tuning, types of valve, and on the other, barely two sentences about its place in Jazz music. Is there really a need for a separate Types of trombone article, which repeats material from this article? There is no "types of clarinet" article, for instance, and there are more types of clarinet than there are useful trombones. Usually, only tenor and bass are encountered, with maybe a dash of alto, and occasionally contrabass in Hollywood movie soundtracks or Wagner's Ring cycle. Soprano trombones are novelty instruments with no proven historical performance and practically zero written music. I'd like to tidy this up and remove the repetition (two separate sections about its construction!) and the un-encyclopedic content - e.g. we don't need to maintain a list of manufacturers, or a list of 20th century composers who wrote trombone parts, or how-to-play section). — Jon (talk) 11:58, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

Posaune

I got an idea that the etymology is off track. I think that "posaune" derives from the concatenation of " poss" the action of pushing up and down as in "possing" and "posing stick" and "horn". Coincidence? - I think not. Professionals, please dive in. 2bahU4 (talk) 17:46, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, 2bahU4, for the suggestion. The etymology of "posaune" is not mentioned in this article. How can it be off track? This article only mentions the etymology of "trombone" itself. Your theory is contradicted here at the German Wikipedia article, which proposes that it is derived from the Latin Buccina, an earlier brass instrument. So to make room for your idea you would need (1) the article to discuss the etymology of Posaune specifically, and (2) a reliable source supporting your idea. I hate to pour cold water but I don't think this will fly. Best wishes DBaK (talk) 18:28, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

Proposal for reorganisation

Please note, a discussion has started on the Types of trombone talk page about splitting this and Types of trombone into their composite articles for consistency with the other orchestral instruments. I've put a banner on both articles alerting editors to this discussion; I'm not sure how to kick off the "proposal to merge" process as it involves several articles at once. If anyone knows or can help, your input would also be appreciated :-) Jon (talk) 00:44, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

This has now largely happened; now there is a proposal to merge the reduced and summarised Types of trombone back into the "Types" section of this article.—Jon (talk) 03:00, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Flugabone

Why does Flugabone redirect to this article, but the flugabone isn't mentioned in the article? 173.88.246.138 (talk) 03:45, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

I've added it to Types of trombone and amended the redirect to point there instead, until we merge it into this page (see below).—Jon (talk) 06:26, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Range

I searched on Google and it shows the lowest note of a trombone without additional material is a E2, but this article says it's a C2. I am kind of confused because the third trombone score for the Yellow River Piano Concerto also contains notes Eb2 and D2, so I doubt if the third trombone is a bass trombone in it's instrumentation. QiuLiming1 (talk) 00:46, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

@QiuLiming1: tenor trombones without F attachments go down to E₂ in 7th position (second partial), and then the pedal/fundamental (first partial) notes start at B♭₁ in 1st position and go down to E₁ in 7th, thus leaving a gap of E♭₂ to B₁ unobtainable without a valve; this gap is often called the "valve register". Modern symphonic tenor trombones usually have an F attachment, which lowers the instrument a fourth into F, but then it only has six positions (since the semitones are longer), which means the B₁ is still unobtainable. Tenor trombone F attachments are usually built with a long tuning slide, so that if necessary a B₁ can be obtained in long 7th by pulling the tuning slide of the F valve out about 15 cm, to E. Bass trombones have two valves usually in F and D to solve this problem, and provide greater facility in this valve register. Without looking at the score, I'd say the third part is probably a bass trombone part, since that is usual, and since it has E♭₂ and D₂ written which are in the valve register. Looks like I should take a look at the ranges given in this article too :-) — Jon (talk) 03:00, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. QiuLiming1 (talk) 23:01, 21 July 2022 (UTC)