Talk:Transnistria/Crime/violent incidents

Discussion on the use of isolated to describe the violent incidents that happened in Transnistria

I do not understand this edit remark: "please provide reference if you want to enter the word isolated" with regards to "violent incidents." The incidents are listed in the article (with references). There are very few, and they are spread out over a long period of time. They also did not happen in the whole country, but just in a few, specific points. If there were more, and if they happened all the time, all over the place, they would not be isolated. But they are precisely isolated because they are NOT frequent. Maybe English is not your first language, but please understand the difference between isolated and non-isolated, frequent, common, routine, etc. - Mauco 17:16, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The word isolated implies a judgment and is a point of view. Can one draw a line between isolated and non-isolated? Which is this line? The violent incidents are listed, and so is the size of the region. The reader should judge whether they are isolated or not. I think NPOV includes presenting the facts without judging them.Dl.goe 17:30, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, using the word isolated makes a judgment that shouldn't be added. I think the same for goes for the crime sections, where the word allegations has been added before smuggling and weapons trade. Yes, many of the claims are unsubstantiated allegations, others are claims supported by evidence, and all of this is explained within the paragraphs. I don't think it's necessary to add a descriptor in the title of the section. TSO1D 17:58, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Until proven, they are nothing but allegations. The POV is to state "Weapons trade" - definitive - as a headline, if no such trade ever took place. And as for "isolated", the simple question is: Did these acts take place on a persistent basis, all over Transnistria? In regards to Kosovo, the term "isolated incidents" is the phrase used by most of the press, although in Kosovo, killings take place weekly, if not daily. - Mauco 02:58, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that the press uses the term doesn't mean that it doesn't include a judgment behind it. Personally I agree that the incidents of domestic terrorism in Transnistria are isolated, however I still think it's best to lay out the facts without any qualifications. As for allegations of... I don't really care too much but see what you mean; without the word it could be interpreted that a statement is made. TSO1D 03:03, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, I know that the press is using POV-judgment when they refer to the Kosovo mess as "isolated incidents". I am not that naive, TSO1D, and maybe I was being provocative with that particular example. But I think (well, hope) that over time we will see that in the case of Transnistria, these incidents ARE indeed isolated. So far, it doesn't look like there is a concerted campaign of bombings or violence, and certainly no specific purpose or pattern to it either. "Isolated" is not so much a value judgment, in my eyes, as it is merely the most accurate description that we can come up with to quickly explain to the reader what is actually going on. And that, as you know, must be our overriding concern as editors. - Mauco 03:08, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In the last months 2 explosions in Tiraspol (described as "terrorist" by authorities and used for arresting pro-Moldovan activists before the referendum) and also one explosion in Tighina (which is not listed in our article). Seems not isolated for me. Anyhow, is best only to list them and let the reader to decide.--MariusM 13:23, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The activists were brought in for questioning, then released. Two explosions in one year is hardly a crime wave or a terrorist wave. Of course these acts were "isolated", and to pretend that they were not (as EvilAlex wants, and you seem to want too) is highly biased POV. The simple question is: Did these acts take place on a persistent basis, all over Transnistria? No, they did not. - Mauco 13:48, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

We should not pretend incidents are isolated or are not isolated. We should just list the incidents and let the readers to decide.--MariusM 16:26, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I also think that "isolated" in the heading sounds a little POV, and agree with MariusM's last opinion that we should let the readers decide and just lay out the facts. Also, this is my point of view and should not be in the article, I think that the incedents aren't very isolated anyway. They maybe few if you look at statistics since 1990, but they are quite a lot for just one year for one very small region/country. Jonathanpops 17:08, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't like the use of the word "isolated" for this instance. Jonathanpops 21:37, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It is the most accurate way to describe them. The opposite of "isolated" is not true. At least not until more bombs go off and there is a pattern to it. Or did it cover the entire Transnistria? I will not agree to a page which is not accurate. If we can not describe it the way it is, it is best to remove the entire section. - Mauco 22:41, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

How about this:

Over the past few years, there have been four violent incidents in Tiraspol...

This way, plain facts are presented and the readers can judge by themselves. I'm not sure that vandalizing the Jewish cemetery counts as a "violent incident". This kind of crap also happens here in Chisinau from time to time (although it ceased lately) as well as anywhere where neo-Nazis are present. Tiraspol, unfortunately, is no exception. I think that the incidents should also be given in detail on the Tiraspol page, with a short summary here. --Illythr 23:07, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't it five incidents? If you quantify these incidents, then also quantify the time span. Like so: "Since 2001, there have been five violent incidents in Tiraspol..." - Mauco 23:15, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Only saying "Since 2001, there have been five violent incidents in Tiraspol..." fogs over the fact the worst ones, two explosions, were this year. And just because I say I don't like "isolated" doesn't mean I want to put the opposite in there, I'm not really sure why you said that Mauco. Why can't they just be "violent incidents" with a complete list of them, allowing readers to decide whether they are big, small, isolated or whatever?Jonathanpops 00:08, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As violent incident is a vague description (a man beating his wife can be considered "violent incident"), we can not tell the number of such incidents and we can not say those are isolated.--MariusM 00:04, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I agree. The page can not include all "violent incidents" indiscriminately. We need to define where to draw the line. A better approach is to look at other Wikipedia country pages and learn from the criteria which they use for inclusion. An explosion might be merited for a mention, but a group of pranksters defacing a cemetery is not. Lots of worse things happen every day in a bunch of other countries, and never make it into Wikipedia's main country pages. A couple of examples: Denmark and Germany routinely have neo nazi incidents which are ten times worse, and a hundred times more frequent. - Mauco 00:22, 31 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

keep it the way that it is now, five incidents in five years is not very frequent, the description isolated is correct. Pernambuco 21:27, 4 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Does this mean that we have solved this now, too? Guys, we seriously need to work on this consensus-thing. The idea is to use this Talk page constructively and get some closure on these items. Once we have that, we can ask for page protection to be lifted, without returning to a repetition of the same revert wars. - Mauco 17:26, 8 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There are eleven open issues here, you don't want to make concessions in any of them, but you are still talking about working constructively. Strange.--MariusM 00:01, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please read this whole talk page twice, or maybe three times, so you get a fuller understanding of what is actually going on here. We simply apply best common practices. We make a good faith attempt to follow the normal Wikipedia policies and guidelines. If anything is proposed which runs counter to this then you are right: There is no need to yield an inch. Why should any editor make "concessions" to edits which are not improving the article or not appropriate? But where an edit makes sense, I can guarantee you that I will be the first to support it. I think that I speak for the majority here when I say that this is how we should edit Wikipedia. - Mauco 01:40, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Periodicity approximately once a year cannot be described as often or regularly. Therefore I support the offer to use a word "isolated". More over I shouldn’t name the explosion in trolleybus last summer “a violent incident”, because as far as I know it was much like an accident.Helen28 14:26, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]