Talk:Transgender genocide

United States Murder Rate

"The murder rate for transgender individuals is estimated to be lower than that of cisgender people, though the trend is reversed for young black or Latina transgender women.[25]" The source for this is broken, and most sources indicate the opposite: https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/ncvs-trans-press-release/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cmenaster (talk • contribs) 19:55, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

I fixed that today @Cmenaster - I found the article it was citing and I think the abstract on the article is very misleading, I can't say if I wrote the study myself that I would have reported the data that way, so I wrote out the actual data that is in the study. It seems incredibly dubious to extrapolate much of anything from the study due to the weird sample they chose but I just chose to report what it said. Computer-ergonomics (he/him; talk; please ping me in replies ) 00:21, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

WP:NOR violation

In the mid-1960s in South Sulawesi, an Islamic militia (Ansor) and an Islamic purification movement (led by Kahar Muzakkar) stigmatized, persecuted, and murdered many among the bissu, a transgender social group. The bissu were seen as objectionable under Islam and, in 1966, an Islamic "Operation Repent" targeted nonconforming Indonesian genders. Bissu rituals were violently suppressed, bissu heads were shorn, and bissu were ordered to conform to male gender roles or die. To demonstrate this coercive threat, a bissu leader was decapitated.

This section appears to be a violation of Wikipedia:No original research. By listing this event in the article on Transgender genocide, the article is implying that this is indeed a case of transgender genocide. However, I have checked all three sources cited and none of them make this assertion (the word "genocide" does not appear in any of the texts).

Without reliable sources that declare this event to be genocide, this section would be a better fit for articles such as Violence against transgender people, not this article which explicitly involves the use of a certain terminology. I will move it there unless there are objections. Astaire (talk) 21:03, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

As it stands the section needs work but a quick search found some sources using the term genocide so I think it should be kept and reworked slightly.

• THE URGENCY TO INCLUDE GENDER AS PROTECTED GROUP UNDER THE CRIME OF GENOCIDE (Purnomo 2020) Bissu, calabai, and calai are one of the victims of the purification process. They were hunted and arrested, because they were considered idol worshipers, guardians of ancient rituals and nurses of the tradition of feudalism.... In 1966 the transgender group recalled the times that were not as bad as the DI / TII period, in the year the crackdown on the Indonesian Communist Party surfaced, the transgender group was also targeted in Tallua's Tumbu operations and Mappatoba operations or Toba operations. This event can at least be considered to be a form of crime of genocide, because in fact this group was the target of purification.
• Marriage equality in Indonesia? Unruly bodies, subversive partners and legal implications (Weiringa 2013) In 2008, I witnessed a Kuda Lumping performance in Malang, East Java. It is a trance dance, in which some dancers cross-dress; it used to be very popular. The group hardly performs any more after their reputation was linked to communism in the heyday of the anti-communist genocide perpetrated by General Suharto.
• Contentious Belonging (Wieringa 2019) :Indonesia has experiences two major episodes of sexual moral panic in the post-independence period. The first occured in the mid-1960s in conjunction with an army-orchestrated campaign of sexual slander that helped to incite Indonesians to slaughter their neighbors. The massacre of up to 1 million people, which amounted to a genocide, ...
• Indonesia's foreign politics 1955-1965: Between decolonisation and beacon politics (Wibisono 2015) refers to the genocide of PKI members during 1966 and says the political and social construction of Communism in Indonesia changed and turned so that people who do not have a religion have been characterized as Communist. It is also happened to the Bissu when they were marginalized and considered as an atheist group, particularly when the Operasi Tobat was launched by Kahar Muzakar in the 1960s in South Sulawesi.

I also think the literature (including that which doesn't focus/mention on the bissu) seems fairly clear that the Indonesian mass killings of 1965–66 (which should be linked in the text) constituted a genocide. The bissu need not have been the only victims of the genocide to be noted as targets of it.

Best regards, Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 22:35, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

It is not at all clear that the attacks on the bissu were part of the Indonesian genocide during the mid-1960s, as you want to imply. In fact, the sources already in the article seem to contradict this claim, stating that:

• the attacks began more than a decade before the genocide,
• by a separatist group opposed to the government responsible for instigating the genocide.

Sutton (pp. 37-38):

During periods of Islamic radicalism in South Sulawesi, particularly the Darul Islam movement under Kahar Muzakkar from around 1950 to 1965, bissu were threatened with death and many, it is widely held, were killed.

Davies (p. 197):

In the last few decades in particular, Islam has provided a basis and justification for anti-bissu sentiment. Heather Sutherland (pers. comm. 2000) comments that there was a great deal of resentment towards bissu when Islamic support reached a peak in the area in the 1950s and 1960s. Indeed, in the 1960s, Ansor, an Islamic militia group, targeted and killed many bissu (Wendy Miller, pers. comm. 2000). This time period also witnessed the rising influence of the staunchly Islamic Kahar Muzakkar movement (Harvey, 1978), which was linked to the Darul Islam separatist rebellion that declared South Sulawesi an Islamic state. Kahar Muzakar authorized the violent persecution of bissu and other elements of society deemed against Islam, such as Communists (Boellstorff, 2005b: 39; Lathief, 2003, 2004: 79–82). In 1966, Operasi Toba (Operation Repent) was initiated to stop practices considered un-Islamic and many bissu ceremonies, customs and activities were forcibly stopped and sacred bissu instruments were burnt or thrown into the ocean.

Boellstorff (p. 39):

For several hundred years, bissu rituals coexisted with the Islamic faith now followed by virtually all Bugis. This changed radically with the rise of the Islamic fundamentalist movement of Kahar Muzakar in South Sulawesi in the mid-1960s. One element of this movement, "Operasi Tobat" (Operation Repent), took aim at practices considered un-Islamic, particularly bissu practices. It was also claimed that bissus were in league with the Communist Party of Indonesia, which was in the process of being eliminated by Soeharto's New Order government.

This notion (that the attacks began well before the genocide, and were independent of it) is also supported by your Source 1 (pp. 90-91):

On August 7, 1953, Kahar Muzakkar proclaimed the south-Sulawesi region as part of DI / TII. Starting that year, until around 1965, DI / TII Kahar Muzakkar rebelled against a legitimate government. That year, the rebellion went hand in hand with the purification of Islam. The Islamic Strait state imagined by DI / TII tends to be anti against everything that smells of culture and traditions of the people. Bissu, calabai, and calai are one of the victims of the purification process.

I also note that this source has significant reliability issues that have already been discussed in the talk page archive:

(1) I can't find any relevant academic credentials for the author; (2) being a "legal analyst" at "PT Netzme Kreasi Indonesia", a cashless banking startup (crunchbase) doesn't support the author being reliable for the topic of international law; and (3) I'm skeptical of the journal's peer-review rigor. Taken together, I don't think the paper is a reliable source for the topic of genocide and international law.

• Source 2 claims that the genocide was "anti-communist", and that the group was linked to communism, but it does not go so far as to state that the group was a target of genocide. There is a gap in the logical reasoning.

• The "sexual slander" referred to in Source 3 is not anything to do with transgender or LGBT individuals, but rather a rumor that some military generals were castrated before being killed. While it mentions "persecution" of the bissu (not genocide), it only mentions this in the context of their perceived political leanings, not their identity (p. 115):

Various popular art forms featuring transgender practices, such as the Reog dance and the Ludruk and Ketoprak theatrical performances, have waned because the performers were persecuted by anti-communist forces after 1965 on the basis of their alleged communist leanings.

• Source 4 only states that communist party members were the victims of genocide, and that the bissu were characterized as communist (by whom?). Again, there is a gap in the logical reasoning.

As it stands, the evidence is insufficient to include these attacks in an article on transgender genocide, unless a reliable and notable source can be found that supports one of the following:

1. The government-instigated Indonesian genocide in the mid-1960s included attacks on the bissu, and they were targeted on the basis of their transgender identity.
2. The attacks on the bissu during the 1950s and 1960s constitute a genocide.

There are currently no sources that support the first assertion, and only a single source (Purnomo) with serious reliability/notability issues that makes the second argument. Astaire (talk) 01:41, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

I stand somewhat corrected on the timeline of events and the reliability of source 1, thanks for pointing that out! I was a little confused as the articles' text says mid-1960s and 1966.

• Wrt source 2, perhaps a better quote is A major event in this regard was the cleansing of the Indonesian society from all traces of communist and socialist influence, in the political context of the creeping coup of General Suharto in 1965-1966.44 In order to discredit President Sukarno, he wiped out the communist party and all its associations, including the cultural association.45 Transgender practices for instance in reog and kethoprak groups became suspect, their adherents murdered or imprisoned, their practices banned.
• Wrt source 3, you're right about the "sexual slander" bit. However, the quote above from the same author above clarifies transgender practices, not just coincidentally their performers, were alleged to be communist and states after 1965, Indonesia developed amnesia about its past, forgetting about the transgender practices and same-sex acts recorded in the colonial period and reinventing itself as a country that had always been strongly heterosexual
• Wrt source 4, I just want to clarify I cited that incorrectly it's Homosexuality in Indonesia: Banality, Prohibition and Migration(The Case of Indonesian Gays) (Adihartono 2015). Apart from that, my bad on including it, I'd thought the 1966 Operation Repent was part of the mass killings.

With that in mind, there are two sources (arguably one considering it's the same author), that state the government-instituted anti-communist genocide in 1965-1966 affiliated transgender practices with communism, such practices were banned, and adherents were murdered or imprisoned.

I think the material concerning the Islamist repression should be kept for context as well though, since a few of the sources here and in the article talk about the polarization in the decade before the government-backed killings as context for them. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 04:57, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

There is a clear pattern here of random actions of anti-trans violence being juxtaposed with statements that do mention a theoretical "transgender genocide" in order to make the latter seem to imply that the former is an act of trans genocide. The "United States" section does that a lot, with statistics of violence and statements by political activists (Trump and Knowles) being juxtaposed with paragraphs where some people say that maybe there is a transgender genocide in the US. The implication is obvious here, this article is falsely and baselessly implying that these actions are genocidal. Bolt and Thunder (talk) 17:56, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

NOR violations in the Criticism section

I had meant to address this a few days ago when I saw it but it slipped my mind: the recent expansion of the criticism section is chock-ful of WP:NOR and WP:RS violations. Reviewing the added sources

• Quillete is Generally Unreliable and just opinion pieces. The opinion of one random gender-critical activist is not DUE here in the slightest.
• Emily Gorcenski's blog post is a self published source
• The National Review is marked no consensus on reliability with a note about due weight - the fact it rants about the existence of this Wikipedia article, uses dogwhistles like "trans women" and "trans-identified males" doesn't speak to it being especially due.
• This scientific article and this one don't make any comment about genocide at all.
• Reem Alsalem's press release doesn't comment on whether or not genocide is happening/has happened, it's her complaining that gender-critical activists are branded as "genocidaires". Considering it has not been mentioned in any reliable sources, WP:SPS, and WP:PRSOURCE, I think it is completely undue.

Frankly I'm not sure we should have a criticism section at all. Prior to the above additions of dubious sources, it only contained Faber's criticism, which doesn't say "transgender genocide doesn't exist, never existed, etc", but says that the term is inapplicable to the context of the modern U.S. and Canada. I propose the recent addition of sources are removed and Farber's criticism be moved to the section on the United States. If we are to have a section on "Criticism", it should contain reliable sources that actually criticize the notion that transgender people can experience genocide, not just people saying the term doesn't apply to one specific context.

Best regards, Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 23:29, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Separate to the questions over the validity of the content in the section, criticism sections are generally discouraged per WP:CRITS. The best thing would be to remove any invalid content and then move the rest into more appropriate parts of the article. DanielRigal (talk) 01:19, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

I agree. Pinging @Sumanuil, @David Gerard, and @Astaire to discuss this further. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 22:55, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

yeah, I just immediately thought "what on earth, this isn't WP:DUE", but the whole section does have the stated problems. Good one on doing the source review Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist - David Gerard (talk) 01:02, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks! Sadly I'm currently under a 0RR that probably applies to this article, so since there seems to be a rough consensus to remove the recently added content and move the criticism by Farber to the US section, I'd appreciate if you or someone else here could handle it. Best, Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 19:08, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

 Done -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 19:41, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

References

See also section

I removed a few repeated links per wp:seealso. If you want to add them back against MOS, that is fine , just maybe say why, thank you, Malerooster (talk) 16:32, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 May 2024

I want to make the heading more accurate by adding ‘conspiracy theory’ after it. MickeyTheMouse3 (talk) 09:10, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Charliehdb (talk) 09:35, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Request: Change title to 'transgender genocide conspiracy theory' or delete the article

There is no article on Wikipedia except for this one that catalogues discussion around a hypothetical genocide that never actually happened. For example, homosexuals were systematically exterminated wherever they were found in various diverse cultures throughout history. There is no "gay genocide" article. However, there is an increasing hysteria, such as on the part of the self-described transgender activist who created this article, pretending that there is such a thing as 'transgender genocide' when the relevant international authorities have established a near-universally accepted and applied definition of genocide that explicitly excludes the term from even applying to transgendered people at all, not to mention that even if transgendered people did constitute a group to whom the label of genocide would be applicable the other criteria are still nowhere near being met. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.105.139.28 (talk) 21:47, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

hypothetical genocide that never actually happened: the point is that some people argue that it has happened and is happening.

near-universally accepted and applied definition of genocide: there is no such definition. There is the definition contained in the Genocide Convention, but it isn't even close to being universally accepted. In fact, basically every genocide scholar you meet will tell you their specific problems with it. AntiDionysius (talk) 21:52, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

"Some people argue" is the basis of a wikipedia article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.105.139.28 (talk) 21:55, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

I am not going to roll this up (unless the thread gets any worse) but I think there is a high chance that this is not a serious request. I think we are being trolled but, even if this is somehow intended seriously, I don't think that we need to waste any further time on this. --DanielRigal (talk) 00:06, 19 December 2024 (UTC)