Talk:Towanda Masonic Lodge No. 30 A.F. and A.M.

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Requested move 08 September 2013

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus. --BDD (talk) 22:50, 30 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Towanda Masonic Lodge No. 30 A.F. and A.M. → Towanda Area Historical Museum – While the current title is the primary name as listed by the National Register of Historic Places (NRHP), it is obsolete. Proposed target title is listed by the NRHP as an alternative (see here), and should be preferred in Wikipedia because it is more recent and conforms to WP:COMMONNAME. Towanda Lodge (the Masonic body that gave the building its old name) sold the building in 1996 and no longer exists (it merged into another nearby lodge). The building was turned into a local area history museum (see their webpage), and has been more commonly known by its new name since. --Relisted. -- tariqabjotu 03:14, 21 September 2013 (UTC) Blueboar (talk) 16:54, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

Rename to Towanda Masonic Lodge. The article is about the building, not about either the Masonic group that formerly used the building or the local history museum whose collection is now housed in it. The "No. 30 AF and AM" part of the current title definitely doesn't belong in the article name; it's part of the organization name, but the article is not about the organization -- and the National Register nomination refers to the building as the "Towanda Masonic Lodge" and reserves "Towanda Masonic Lodge No. 30 A.F. and A.M." for the organization. I'm not convinced that the building is actually known by the museum name that Blueboar proposes. The museum website doesn't even use that name. I did find the name used on Facebook and Google Plus and in a 2010 news story published by several media outlets. However, the news story underlines for me that the museum, like the Masonic group, is an organization that occupies the building and probably can't be equated with the building itself. Notwithstanding the fact that a Masonic "lodge" isn't actually a building, I think that "Towanda Masonic Lodge", as the name the building apparently went by for 90 years, is still probably the best name for the article. --Orlady (talk) 18:47, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes it was a Masonic lodge hall/building/temple (whatever) for many years... but it has been a local history museum for over 17 years now... I think our article title should reflect that modern usage. We should call it what it is... a museum. Blueboar (talk) 20:01, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The article title is supposed to reflect the single best name for the article topic. The article topic is the building, not the museum in the building. It's a small museum (open 12 hours a week) and it's a small town (1450 people -- the sort of place that has little population turnover, and where people have long memories), and the museum's own website doesn't call it by the name "Towanda Area Historical Museum". I would wager that people in Towanda still call the building "the masonic lodge". Lacking evidence that the museum name is truly the common name of the building, I figure the "masonic lodge" name should remain, but without the words that properly are part of an organization name. --Orlady (talk) 20:50, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well... according to its website, the museum calls itself: "The Museum in Towanda". I suppose we could call that the "Official name". However, they seem to be the only people that do call it that. A quick google/bing search returns quite a few sources that use "Towanda Area Historical Museum" (just to pick some of the first few hits as examples, see: here, here, here, and here.

If we want to distinguish between the museum and the building... Perhaps we could go with a descriptive title as opposed to a strictly "name" title... would you accept Towanda Area Historical Museum building? Blueboar (talk) 12:30, 9 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Nope. We have no evidence that anyone (except us) has ever called it the "Towanda Area Historical Museum building"! That's no common name.

Your sources for the name are not strong evidence. In order, they are (1) the same news item I cited earlier on this page, (2) a page created by scraping web content, (3) a list of attractions on a county tourism website, and (4) another page created by scraping web content. Items 1 and 3 do indicate that the museum uses the name "Towanda Area Historical Museum," even if the name doesn't appear on the website.

Regarding the distinction between building and museum, it might be a mistake to equate a museum with the building that houses it. Please recall the case of the Polly Rosenbaum Building (formerly named as a Shrine building) and the Arizona Mining and Mineral Museum, which was housed in the museum at the time of our discussions about the name of the building. The separation of the articles turned out to be important, as the building had a history before, during and after its association with the museum, and the museum had an existence before it moved into this building -- and might be revived again someday in spite of what the state of Arizona did to it. I'm not convinced that this Towanda museum is itself notable, but that's another issue. --Orlady (talk) 14:11, 9 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think you are missing the point of my suggestion... by going with a descriptive title, we don't need to worry as much about the "what do people call it" issue. Our title would not be the building's NAME... but a description of the building. We know that multiple sources call the organization that owns the building the "Towanda Area Historical Museum"... So, it is accurate to describe the building as being the "Towanda Area Historical Museum building". The history of the building can be outlined in the text. Blueboar (talk) 21:49, 9 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Any additional comments:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.