Talk:Touch the Clouds

copyedit tag added

Hi there, I added the tag so that this article will get looked at by the WP:LoCE. This person definately deserves an article and thankyou to those who have started it. I see from previous notes here that English may not be the first language of the creator so don't take offense, I just want the article to be improved! Thanks.--killing sparrows ^(chirp!) 18:19, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for helping me, Hippie! -)-(-H- (|-|) -O-)-(- 10:32, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

NPOV Tag

I'm doing NPOV tag cleanup. This tag was placed without discussion on the talk page. Discussion is required so that the one placing the tag can state clearly what it is they find amiss, and to permit other users to discuss and resolve any such reasonable issues. This is a drive-by tagging and will be removed. Any discussion may be directed here or to my talk page. If you tag, state why clearly and thoroughly on the talk page. Jjdon (talk) 23:23, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Improvements

This article clearly needs some improvements. J.B. (talk) 11:46, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. I added the source tag accordingly. I also removed the lines that stated that Touch the Clouds was at Little Bighorn, and though he may have been allied with Crazy Horse, I can't find any references that states he fought during the conflict of 1876-77. The references that I have state that Touch the Clouds remained at the Cheyenne River Agency throughout the conflict, though he was there at Crazy Horse's death. CosmicPenguin (Talk) 15:45, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your work here. I completed referencing the article. And yes, he fought at Little Bighorn in 1876. Great Gall (talk) 12:03, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

The gallery reference is hardly reliable. According to the Camp interviews, at least one chief said that there were no Minneconjou chiefs at Little Bighorn. And Cheyenne River Agency records show that Touch the Clouds was in council with the Army in July, which would have been unlikely if he had been at Little Bighorn at the end of June. I will ping an expert in the area to stop by and give an opinion. CosmicPenguin (Talk) 16:56, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Cosmic penguin this is the worlds best article nomiate it for GA! 145.99.106.218 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 17:21, 22 November 2008 (UTC).

this is the best article ever!

this is the best article ever! this is the best article ever! this is the best article ever! this is the best article ever! this is the best article ever! this is the best article ever!

145.99.106.218 (talk) 17:19, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

it really is! nominate it for GA!

Even if it is "the best article ever" (which I do not claim, since I haven't analyzed all other articles), that is no reason to spam the talk page by saying it six times in a row. Well, at least you signed your post... Xavius, the Satyr Lord (talk) 14:06, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Height and Weight

To the individuals who keep inserting the line about Touch the Clouds height and weight, please double-check your references. They appears to be incorrect. Incidentally, in the 1877 photographs of Touch the Clouds where he is standing with other Lakota, he is clearly not 7 feet tall. More importantly, this is not what makes him important and worth inclusion in the wikipedia. The first paragraph should be a summary of why he is important -- which includes his position as a leader among the Minneconjou, his reputation in battle, his skill as a diplomat, and the fact that he was part of a dynasty of leaders from the Lone Horn family. Debates about his weight and height should be nothing more than a footnote. --User:Ephriam3

He is not standing on the 1877 photograph, he is sitting. That makes a huge difference. In sitting position, he seems taller then the others. Besides: most sources may put him at 7 feet, others put him at just 6 feet 5 inches. That would be closer, probably, but it should be mentioned. He was a very skilled warrior and strong as an ox. When Crazy Horse got stabbed, he carried him in his arms as if he where a child and put him on a table - unless Crazy Horse was a dwarf, that would mean Touch the Clouds was a very large man. I am going to include the line about his size, but this time no in the lead, but further down the article, agreed? Jouke Bersma _{Contributions} 08:08, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the source you listed isn't reliable. I searched at length, and found no reliable sources that put him at 7' feet high (and not even the source you gave states he was 400 pounds; the pictures do not show a 400 pound man, even if he is 7 feet tall). The only one I found was the newspaper article that listed him at 6'5". I'm a little bemused that this would be an area of debate - even if slightly inaccurate, 6"5 and 240 pounds means that was a large and imposing figure. Inflating the values doesn't do anything for the article or his legend. I'm going to follow Ephriam's advice and move the "controversy" to a footnote. CosmicPenguin (Talk) 18:13, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

I finally found the reference in Hardorff's book and corrected the page number in the reference. Incidentally, Touch the Clouds is standing in two of the photographs taken in the 1877 delegation series. One shows him as part of the entire delegation, taken by Alexander Gardner; the second is a individual portrait of him by the Ulke brothers, though there is no one else in the image so you do not get a sense of scale there. I am comfortable with the reference to 6'5", but without documentation of any kind, not comfortable with the 7' 400 lb. comment. I hope the chanages made will be satisfactory to everyone. --User:Ephriam3

They are. And, what do ya think, will the article pass GA nominations? That would be great: Ephraim, you've done good work and this would be good. Jouke Bersma _{Contributions} 10:42, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

GA review

The article passes the GA review. The article is:

• Well written
• Well referenced
• Of good spelling
• Well illustrated
• Images have no copyright issues

Article has a good lead, no sources in it, it reads well. It passes on all account one could imagine. It is a fine article it most definetely is. Looking at the articles history I noticed that until about 2 weeks ago, it was not even half as good as it is know, some three editors have worked very hard on expanding and referencing it. Especially Ephriam3, Jouke Bersma and CosmicPenguin. The article is not very long though, if you ever want it to make FA class it has to be expanded and made twice as long. Also I would recommend searching some more images once the article will be expanded. I am not going to be ignorant and fail it because it only has two images - the article passes! Cheers! Great Gall (talk) 17:43, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Improper review by a new user, not valid, see Wikipedia_talk:Good_article_nominations#Rule_to_make_only_established_editors_review_for_GA_status.3F --—Preceding unsigned comment added by Bluptr (talk • contribs)

Why on earth is my review improper? I have read this article again and again and closely studied the needed criteria. Based on my findings I decided to pass the article. I honestly feel to see the problem here. Okay, I am new here, so what? I've been watching wikipedia from my IP adress much longer and closely read the rules long before I even joined in in the first place. Now all of a sudden my review is "improper"? How's that? I read how I should do it and did as I should. The article passed and currently is a Good Article (GA). So what? Great Gall (talk) 18:36, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Your review is "improper" because it does not take into consideration a basic rule for a Good Article--The article should have a proper lead, and every reviewer should follow the template... consider going thru the guidelines here: Wikipedia:Good article criteria -- Bluptr (talk) 14:28, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Crazy Horse's death

Currently, the article states:

Touch the Clouds carried his dying cousin to the desk of an officer and laid him on a red blanket. He was with him at the time of his death and delivered Crazy Horse's body to his father.

I'm not sure of the validity of that statement, but it is well beyond my expertise, so I was hoping someone else could confirm. The attached ref is Hardorff (2001), but that was originally attached to the preceeding line, and I don't have sufficient access to check it - if it is from that work, it might be from page 58, but that's all I know. I have seen other references, but they all seem to vary significantly from each other. In addtion, the original line stated that Touch the Cloud delivered Crazy Horse to his "widowed father", which contradicts Hyde & Anderson, who state "With them went Cray Horse's mother and father, carrying the bones of their great son". (p. 287). As it was a contradition and non-essential, I've removed it, but if it is correct feel free to replace. :) At any rate, this is beyond me without a lot more time to study the topic, so I was hoping someone with a better understanding could confirm these either way. - Bilby (talk) 15:46, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

For what it is worth, there is a limited preview of the Hardorff book over at Google books. CosmicPenguin (Talk) 17:08, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

I am uncertain who added the section about Touch the Clouds carrying Crazy Horse's body but it is not supported by the eye witness accounts. I have deleted it. If the individual who wrote it can provide a referenece, I would be happy to put it back again. Ephriam3 (Talk) 09:14, 30 November 2008

GA status

Ok, I may have been wrong to pass this article last time, but since someone has re-nominated it the article has been greatly improved in quality by the hard work of users like Ephriam and Bilby. That is very good. The leas was to short, that was the main issue why it should not have passed the nomination, am I right? Well, someone seems to have taken care of that. The article is well referenced now and it is illustrated with images that have no copyright issues if I'm not mistaking. Then the article is long, has had no real editing disputes over the last few weeks, and it is well referenced. The sources used in the article cover all the statements made in the article. As of now, I see no reason why it would not pass GAN. Maybe the article could be made a little bit longer - not sure though, but maybe with such a lenghty lead the article itself should be a little bit longer. What I want to know now is this: in its current form, will the article pass or not and if not then what should you guys do to make it fit? Great Gall (talk) 12:08, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I am not familiar with the subject, but I see a couple of issues,

• • when you are using a dash ("—"), dont leave any space before and after, (See WP:MOS). It will be good if a citation templates are used. (not strictly necessary)
  • Its ideal to have references at the end, for ex in sentence, "After Lone Horn died in 1875, the mantle of leadership fell to his son[1] – just as the Army was beginning its campaign against the non-treaty bands."
  • Should the sections 1, 2, 3 be under a Biography title?

I greatly appreciate the hard work of other users, but still few issues persist and pls have patience, a reviewer will check for these in detail -- Bluptr (talk) 13:17, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Bluptr, luckily the things you refer to are small changes. It would be easy to take care of those. I sincerely hope this one will pass - it came from nothing and has been built up to high quality in just two weeks or so. I greatly respect that! Especially user Ephriam has done his best here. Jouke Bersma _{Contributions} 11:51, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes I do hope it passes GA review, I initially objected, because the review was not proper. I appreciate the efforts of editors, one more good article on Wikipedia! Hopefully a editor aware of the subject will review it soon. All the best. Bluptr (talk) 14:37, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from [[Talk:{{subst:Touch the Clouds}}]]. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Touch the Clouds is a strong article in terms of content in the area of Lakota history which is otherwise not covered very well in Wikipedia. The Good Article Nomination has been fairly messy, but it has not reached the level of an edit war. Rather it has developed rapidly along a rocky road, so we can in good faith call it “stable.” Wikipedia should be glad of the interest in Lakota history from User:Great Gall – we need more good articles like this – but it’s fair to say that he has been over-enthusiastic. I’ll recommend that he watch this article, with participation in consensus building, and then take this experience and build similar articles.

The prose needs some work. Concepts like “ chief of the Minneconjou Teton Lakota “ combined with “the Wakpokinyan band” can be confusing to people not familiar with the topic, so need to be carefully laid out. And I haven’t even mentioned “Sioux” yet! Parenthetical comments (e.g. “The Wakpokinyan appear to have split, with part of the band (including Touch the Clouds)) should be eliminated by rewriting.

The last two sections get bogged down in detail, so it’s easy to lose the main points. Please keep most of the details, but lay out the main points very clearly – perhaps at the start of each section and then briefly repeat them as you go through chronologically. Place names need to be better identified – a few links might help, e.g. to Cheyenne River Agency or Great Sioux Reservation – or include a map such as “Image:Siouxreservationmap.png”. Some of the text appears to be a summary of academic work. I suggest rewriting those paragraphs from the beginning.

Some examples:

"When the Wakpokinyan band (which included Touch the Clouds) split in the mid 1870s, the band traveled to the Cheyenne River Agency. Touch the Clouds assumed the leadership of his band in 1875 upon the death of his father, and under his leadership they remained during the initial period of the Great Sioux War of 1876-77. However, after the events of Little Bighorn he took..."

might be better as:

"Touch the Clouds's Wakpokinyan band split in the mid 1870s and traveled to the Cheyenne River Agency. Following the death of his father in 1875, Touch the Clouds took over leadership of his band through the period of the Great Sioux War of 1876-77. After the battle of Little Bighorn he took.."

"not long after being present at the death of Crazy Horse, Touch the Clouds transferred with his band back to the Cheyenne River Agency."

might be better as:

"soon after he watched the bayoneting of Crazy Horse and cared for his dying cousin, Touch the Clouds and his band returned to the Cheyenne River Agency."

"As the Great Sioux War of 1876-77 commenced," to

"At the start of the Great Sioux War of 1876-77"

The content is the strength of the article – as it should be. It does appear to be quite dependent on one reference [^ a b c Hardorff, Richard G. (2001). The Death of Crazy Horse: A Tragic Episode in Lakota History. Lincoln, NE: University of Nebraska Press. pp. p. 48. ISBN 0803273258. 4 reference total] for many of the main points. I’d use Harvard referencing here so that page numbers can be easily included, and include the link to Google Books, so that people can easily check the references (example below). I’d also search Google Books for other references since Western history seems to be best covered in books by small academic presses.

Minor points

• ”Amos Charging First” or just “Charging First” as in info box
• The external links are interesting general links to Native American history, but don’t connect to a Lakota page (other than “Indian Geneology”). Please connect them more closely to Touch the Clouds or delete them.
• The “American Old West” box at the end of the article needs some work or some rethinking. It strikes me as more miscellaneous “Americana” than “American History” and it’s too large. This really isn’t the authors’ obligation to fix this template, but I’d like the article better with a better template. Isn’t there a “Native American History” template? Perhaps just delete the template.
• ” Irwin to CoIA” in reference. Not clear what CoLa is. Maybe a link to the source would help. Links to other souces would also help.

1. Well-written: (a) almost passing – a little work will go a long way to improving the article (b) passing

2. Factually accurate and verifiable: (a)(b) good – better references and links would help (c) passing – doesn’t contain original research.

3. Broad in its coverage: (a) (b) passing – last two sections should make the main points clearer

4. Neutral passing

5. Stable: passing – as above

6. Illustrated, if possible, by images: (a) no copyright problems, a map would help (b) images are relevant

I’ll recommend putting this “On Hold” for a week or two.

Smallbones (talk) 17:23, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Notes

Sources

• Hardorff, Richard G. (2001), The Death of Crazy Horse: A Tragic Episode in Lakota History, Lincoln, NE: University of Nebraska Press, ISBN 0803273258, retrieved 2008-12-09

I would like to urge people checking this article to be extra careful. The probvlem is that this article is infested by a sockfarm (see Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Kermanshahi which have combined good edits with vandalism and (most worryingly) sneaky vandalism, and that these people are pushing the hardest for GA on this article. I am afraid that they will have introduced sneaky vandalism in this one as well, which may be hard to spot. If the people doing the GA review are convinced that the contents are correct, I have no objections, but in this case one should not assume good faith too much and doublecheck everything. (For all clarity, editors not named in those sockpuppet reports are not involved in this vandalism, this message is only about these few sockpuppets). Fram (talk) 09:57, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

This is a real shame. If it wasn't clear above, I really liked this article. I'm even inclined to think that the sockpuppet watchers might be biting some newbies. On the other hand, this review has been sitting here for 10 days without any serious work being done on the article. So the authors are not as serious as they ought to be - i.e. facts need to be check carefully and fully documented - and there is some additional question on stability. I'll fail the article for GA if nothing is done within 4 days. Smallbones (talk) 16:05, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

I'll see what I can do with it - 4 days is a tad tight (although certainly more than fair), given that this isn't really my area, but it deserves a real shot. :) In relation to the sock issue - while that editor nominated the article and did some editing, most of the work has been by Ephriam3, who (judging by his user page) certainly knows what he's talking about, so I suspect there will be few (if any) significant problems with the sourced material. - Bilby (talk) 11:40, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for taking so long to look back at this article. I am new to Wikipedia and so don't check all the references every night! The original article which was nominated so hard for GA was just one paragraph long and inaccurate. I was asked by a reviewer who had read my other postings to take a look at this one. In the end, I just started from scratch and rewrote the entire article, including adding a better copy of the photograph. I just rechecked the article and I can find no hidden vandalisms (do some folks have nothing better to do?! Is there a way to limit edits?). I will have to read some more about the proper way to do footnotes within Wikipedia. It is inaccurate to have several links back to Footnote 1 for example since all of the information is not on that cited page. Once I understand how to, I will correct that. Also, the reviewer above is correct in noting that Hardorff's book is cited several times, however, please note that this book is actually a compendium of primary source material. In several of the footnotes, I cited the original source and then where it was found in Hardorff's book, since that reference will be the one most accessible to most readers. In my opinion, the article is still very light in the last part of his life and needs to be expanded. We do not yet say what his role was in the important debate about reducing the size of the reservations in 1888-89 during the commissions; or his reaction to the rise of the Ghost Dance. Will add additional information as I can find it and have time. I am hoping to write similiar biographical entries for other prominent Lakota leaders of the nineteenth century (one of my research interests). Any suggestions would be most appreciated. Ephriam3

FWIW, I don't think that User:Jouke_Bersma ended up causing any damage - I've been watching this page for a while now, and really the only thing he tried to add a few times was the bit about Touch The Clouds being 7 foot tall and 400 pounds, which luckily didn't stick. CosmicPenguin (Talk) 04:10, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

That's good news! If that's the case, then I have no opinion on this GA, but no fundamental objections. Fram (talk) 15:00, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

It's good to see this getting back on track. I'll be gone until New Year's as I suspect others will as well. I'll leave this open at least until Jan. 10, but might not have much time for it after that. Happy Holidays to everybody!

2 minor comments footnote 14 "I'll try hard to be a Chief" just sounds odd; footnote 15 begs the question of why we don't download the photo and display it here. The Omaha Public Library has a recent copyright notice, but they can't copyright the 1898 image, if the image was PUBLISHED before 1923 we can definitely download it. Smallbones (talk) 15:04, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Sorry that nobody ever got back to do the required work on this, so I was forced to fail this. As soon as a reasonable amount of good work is done, I predict it will pass GA. Good luck and Happy editing. Smallbones (talk) 02:54, 12 January 2009 (UTC)