Talk:Toubou people

History

This could use some improvement. Sir H. MacMichael claimed that the Tibu were related to the Garamantes known to the Greeks and Romans and that they had extensive contact with Nubia to their east. The article suggests the Tibu have been important in Chadian history, but doesn't detail their links to the Zaghawa dynasty that ruled Kanem. I'm hesitant to add too many historical details - esp. involving Greco-Roman connections - on the basis of Victorian British sociology, but someone should be able to expand this article with more modern research. -LlywelynII (talk) 16:47, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Were they Jewish before they became Muslim? "La religion - Avant 1230 avant JC, les Toubous pratiquent la religion du dieu du soleil, ensuite le judaïsme de 1230 avant JC jusqu'au 8ème siècle , et depuis la religion majoritaire est l'Islam." http://www.tibesti.org/presentation/2.htm This site confirms the Garamante connection. "Le mélange des peuples Garamantes et Nubiens donne naissance au Tedas." Nubians must be a mistake for Numidians, a common confusion. Mike Nassau (talk) 16:21, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Merge proposal

I propose merging the stubs Teda people and Daza people into Toubou people#Teda and Daza. Thoughts? --M4gnum0n (talk) 15:43, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

• Agreed - ArnoldPlaton (talk) 22:00, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
• Agree and done. -- P 1 9 9  ✉ 19:33, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed

One or more portions of this article duplicated other source(s). The material was copied from: http://books.google.fr/books?id=ztyc9afcyesC&lpg=PA32&dq=Haddad%20toubou&pg=PA32#v=onepage&q=Haddad%20toubou&f=false. Infringing material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. MLauba ^(Talk) 11:47, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

DNA

No DNA studies? СЛУЖБА (talk) 00:22, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

The above editor has just volunteered to do some work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.15.21.214 (talk) 17:40, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

tambem achei pobre o artigo devia ter algo sobre o dna pois parece um povo saheliano — Preceding unsigned comment added by 177.83.197.237 (talk) 18:00, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

Remarks in the English Wikipedia should be in English. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.15.21.214 (talk) 09:33, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

The above seems to be in Portuguese. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.15.21.214 (talk) 09:38, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

Population contradiction?

Regarding the Teda, the text currently says "...while the Teda are only 42,000" and later "They number more than 50,000". I say leave it in: presumably it reflects two sources. Removing just one would give false accuracy, and removing both would be misleading (as presumably they reflect two genuine estimates). Or perhaps replace with "estimates vary, some saying 42,000, some saying more than 5,000" ? 2.96.20.250 (talk) 16:03, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Someone has removed this altogether, instead putting 750,000. However, the small number was not wrong altogether. The point is that the term "Teda" has two meanings - the smaller one (They live in the north of Chad, but not on the border, instead immediately to the north of the Daza. And it were only this small group who traditionally called themselves "Teda".) And there is a larger (only used in science) meaning of "Teda", that also includes another, much larger group from Libya who call themselves "Tibbu" (after whom scientists named the whole grouping), and whose dialect is rather close (separated just 400 years ago) to the small Teda. Here is a good picture, but in Russian. --Yomal Sidoroff-Biarmskii (talk) 20:29, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

External links modified

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Genetics

The genetics section has been fixed. Previously, it had incorrect numbers for the haplogroups and had an unsourced and nonsensical section about the Toubou being the "the Qaraan" and related to the LBK. I removed the nonsense and fixed the numbers from the cited article. It should be noted that the numbers for Y-chromosomes are found in the supplemental data https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0002929716304487-mmc1.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.191.1.209 (talk) 00:07, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

English

There's some truly awful English in this article. Many of the sentences appear to be the result of clumsy edits that leave parts of two sentences glued together, or half-sentences with no main verb. The task of fixing this is daunting, and I prefer to concentrate on subjects I know something about; so I'm not going to wade in.

MrDemeanour (talk) 17:25, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Toubou in Libya figures and population

I'm on a Cell Phone, please excuse me for being an IP. I decided to take this to the Talk Page to bring my concerns, basically, The User Editor: 'EysaAlahmady' (https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/User_talk:EysaAlahmady) is not adding credible information for the number of Toubou in Libya. His link showing 200,000 is not accurate or accessible whatsoever, unlike the original figures of 50,000-85,000, which has two accessible and sourced links. This is why I restored the more correct info that has actual sources we can discuss.

1. 50,000 Toubou in Libya according to (2021): https://iwgia.org/en/libya/4230-iw-2021-libya.html

"In addition to Arab and Amazigh communities, there is an ethnic minority in Libya known as the “Toubou”, comprising some 50,000 individuals. They are originally from the Tibesti plateau in Chad and they live along the Libya/Chad border. They live a nomadic way of life and practise pastoralism across an area that extends from northern Niger to the Sudan."

2. 85,000 Toubou in Libya according to (2011): https://books.google.co.tz/books?id=SPBfnT_E1mgC&redir_esc=y

"...the total population was estimated at 250,000, with about a half in Chad, a third in Libya, and the remainder in Niger."

1/3 of 250,000 is 83,333, and rounded off we get 85,000, so again another credible figure. Please before changing these numbers, add a proper source that can be verified.

41.222.177.123 (talk) 05:48, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Greetings to Wikipedia, I initially made this topic above on my IP, it is me, but I joined today with an account to make it easier to dialogue. Feel free to discuss with myself further, thank you. Bayek Al-Maghrabi (talk) 11:14, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

@EysaAlahmady

Hello, so I found the news headline source of a 300,000 figure, which is said to come from 'Le Point', a French newspaper who stated it here (2014): https://www.ecoi.net/de/dokument/1242595.html & https://www.lepoint.fr/editos-du-point/mireille-duteil/toubous-contre-djihadistes-la-petaudiere-du-sud-libyen-03-02-2014-1787235_239.php

However, you cannot just remove the others (especially using wrong formatting and disrupting the entire Article), as the sources vary, with the latest ones giving much lower numbers.

An example being the UNHCR listed 12,000-15,000 in Libya (2018): https://webarchive.archive.unhcr.org/20230517175317/https://www.refworld.org/docid/5b9fb6ae7.html

Anyway, what you are to do, is to simply increase the range. If you want to add it, keep the other credible references, but make the estimates instead to 50,000-300,000 in Libya. I'm skeptical of such a large figure, but can accept as it is found in a reference, still though not so sure on the Paris based newspaper's credibility as it is just a statement with no census. Bayek Al-Maghrabi (talk) 18:10, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Original research in article

@DaziAllachi: I'm pinging you here, because you have been warned to not insert information into this article for which no reliable source exists, as that constitutes original research. The information you are inserting may be correct, but it cannot be on the page if you do not have a reliable source to reference for it. If you can produce one, then it can be added into the article with proper referencing. If you cannot, it does not belong on Wikipedia.

Please discuss here before reverting back to your edits. I do not wish to escalate this, as I believe you are acting in good faith, so please reply to this before making any other actions. Thanks. SmittenGalaxy | talk! 06:58, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

@DaziAllachi: pinging again to attempt discussion about this. SmittenGalaxy | talk! 08:01, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Adding Useful information about my Toubou people

I already provided existing information about the tribes, clans, and communities, as well as the meaning of Toubou nomenclature and many other things. I am from Toubou and also I provided you my Facebook page teaching my people about our history and also I am 43 years old. DaziAllachi (talk) 08:01, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

This is not about if the information you provided is factual or not, the information you are adding does not have a reliable source to back it up. At Wikipedia, information must be sourced from reliable, secondary sources, independent of the subject. What you are doing is inserting original research, which is defined as information for which no reliable and published source exists. Wikipedia is not the place for this, and if you are unable to find sources for your writing, it cannot be in the article.

I understand the information you are adding may be true, but we cannot have articles entirely based on the self-written knowledge of an individual. Please do not revert back to your edits or add more unsourced content to the article. If you can source what you add, and reference it correctly, then it can stay. If you need help doing so, I am willing to help search for sources for this information so it may remain in the article.

However, if you continue to add information that is not properly and reliably sourced, I am afraid that I must escalate this beyond warnings and talk page discussions. Feel free to respond here, and ping me when you do so by using

{{ping|SmittenGalaxy}} at the beginning of your message, or by leaving a comment on my talk page, which I have both linked here and is linked in my signature. Thank you. SmittenGalaxy | talk! 08:12, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

I have sources and I took the information from Catherine the French Author as well as I am from Toubou. DaziAllachi (talk) 08:22, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Unfortunately, unless you yourself are an "established subject-matter expert, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications" (per WP:SELFPUB), I do not believe any information that you created or are referencing to (such as your Facebook page) can be used in the article.

However, you said you had information from an author. Can you link somewhere you got this source (or sources) from? If you don't have a digital version, and only have it in physical print, could you give me the name of the book or work you're talking about? If not, anything identifying such as the full name of an author will work as well. SmittenGalaxy | talk! 08:29, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

I included some tribes, subtribes, clans, and subclans of my Toubou people. I took the information from the French old woman named Catherine Baroin. Journal des Afriques 1986. The Toubous, these traditional people DaziAllachi (talk) 08:40, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Generally speaking, my information is more credible than that of European authors such as Jean Chapelle who was a great criminal because he distorted the history of the Kamaya community and all French colonial settlers were criminals because purposefully distorted the history of innocent Kamaya community. Kamaya clearly wrote the nomenclature for their community name here to correct their history. These Europeans have corrupted the history of innocent people and know nothing about my people. Believe me I am ten thousands more reliable than those European authors that you asked me about to send you their publications. DaziAllachi (talk) 08:50, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

I can understand the concern about the distortion of history through the publications of European colonials, but for information to be included in the article there must be reliable sourcing to anything you add. We can cover the reliability and bias in their publications versus other sources using WP:DUE, which essentially means that information in an article should be reported in its proportion of sourcing. This means that if something is a majority by a large amount of sources, it will be reported on more than a minority or fringe viewpoint.

However, the root of your issues can be avoided if you have sources that are reliable and secondary, but may be less biased and deserve more due weight in the article than the sources of the European colonials. Unfortunately it's late where I am, so I will have to sleep soon, but once I get back on tomorrow I can help you find better sources.

For the time being, I would advise you to look for any sources you can find that support the information you added in this edit you made earlier. I see the information about the origin of the name, as well as the variety of tribe and clan names you added. I would recommend searching on JSTOR and Google Scholar, both of which I have added reference notes to in order to get started looking for sources that would support the information you added earlier.

You can continue to reply here if you have any further questions, and I will do my best to respond when I wake up. Additionally, you may also start a discussion on my talk page if you wish, or also email me as well. I will also look for sourcing that supports your information as well once I wake up. Thank you. SmittenGalaxy | talk! 09:08, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

The Anakaza community misled the French colonizers to falsify the history of the noble Kamaya community, who fell victims of lies. Then, the French colonial officials deliberately distorted the history of the innocent people Kamaya. The Anakaza nomenclature refers to “mixed people of unknown origins” in Tudaga who are not descended from true Toubou Gorane origins in general, and the Anakaza's first families who developed into clans are of unknown origins. Their first ancestors, one named “Michi Tchouni” in Tudaga, literally means “he came chasing a wild sheep” to Faya oasis. The first clan of Kamaya of Teda Magazana tribe origin nicknamed them Anakaza and their ancestor by Michi Tchouni. Until now, they have no idea what his true name and origins are, nor who came with him to Faya were nicknamed Anakaza. Their second ancestor is of an Azza offspring named Yaskou Choulouma, both of whose names mean black, one in Dazaga and the other in Kanembou and his true name is unknown. He was an Azza (blacksmith) ran away from Kanem, to Bahr el-Gazaelle to Faya and concealed his origins, and their third ancestor is from unknown origins however they tried to create him origins of Kara community but their claims baseless. We know our history very well. I am from Charfada (True Daza race), my father is mother is From Howda (True Daza race) and my mother is from Teda Tumaghra (origin Daza Maghya) and my grandmother from my mom’s side is from Maghya. DaziAllachi (talk) 09:24, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

References

Put back the added useful information

Please listen to me and reinstate the information that I added previously because it is useful for the public readers and my Toubou people in general to know about their tribes, subtribes, clans, and subclans. I also added much more useful information about the nomenclature Tuda, Tumaghra clan of Maghya origins, and the meaning of Dazagada and Daza nouns. DaziAllachi (talk) 09:27, 1 July 2024 (UTC)