Talk:Torture chamber

Archive 1

Image of torture implements in a room

An image of a small room full of torture implements looking like a busy storage room without even enough space to hold any victims is not, imo, a satisfactory depiction of a torture chamber. In addition it is also unsourced and thus it is original research to call it a torture chamber. The slow-motion edit-war by the original uploader of this image however has to stop until there is consensus to include this confusing, imo, picture in the article or not. Its location near the lead of the article is also clearly undue weight for an image which amounts to nothing more than a simple storage room for torture equipment. I will seek a third opinion over this in order to reach (hopefully) quick consensus and avoid any further edit-warring. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 01:03, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I just brought it up at WP:3O: [1]. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 01:15, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
3O Response: Hi,
I don't think it's an ideal image of a torture chamber. It's a museum exhibit which crams lots of things into a small room, including weapons which are not really torture instruments. Best not to include it in the article, which is already image-heavy. However, the other images of torture chambers are copies of old drawings, so it's worth keeping an eye out for better images - especially modern ones, since the article's current images are very much weighted towards torture as a historic phenomenon rather than as something which still happens. bobrayner (talk) 14:49, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much Bob. I fully agree with your opinion. Best regards. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 16:57, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oddly constructed torture chamber

An edit stated that the chamber had curved walls or something to reduce screaming being heard from the outside. This, in turn, would mean that there was some reason that the screaming should not be heard. In the worst case, the people ordering the torture would not have their meals (or sleep) disturbed. Another conclusion is that the torture was illegal.

Someone running a legal torture chamber would want screams to be heard thereby forcing prisoners to confess early from sheer fright. Or just to frighten people out of sheer sadism. They were going to torture them anyway. But going to the extra work of concealing the screams raises more questions than it answers. It might have been as simple as avoiding an underground boulder when they dug giving rise to a tale about "concealing screams." This would almost make more sense. Student7 (talk) 21:15, 11 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It is all in reference [13] as I had explained in my previous edit summary. It explains how the walls were constructed to avoid the screams being carried to the exterior. To make things clearer I added the full quotation from reference [13] in this edit. And the reference talks about the screams not carried to the exterior, meaning outside the prison. It does not say that the screams could not be heard by other prisoners inside the chamber. The reference also mentions another reason for not carrying the screams to the exterior, which was to avoid disturbing the pope who was residing on another wing of the Palace at Avignon. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 22:10, 11 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Questions about citation

A citation is given for Jacques Crétineau-Joly, described in Wikipedia as sympathetic to the Jesuits. The bio gives no indication that his work can/could be used to chronicle torture by Catholics. The English intro to the translation of his book, gives away that scenario: look at what these rascals are doing illegally right under our noses! Written with the typical Anti-Catholic bias by the English of the 19th century. The material is supposed to cover the past 60 years of Jesuit history in England and Ireland. Apparently, for "context", it goes well beyond that. For example, explaining the "poisoning" of Pope Clement XIV well before this period. Except he wasn't poisoned, however interesting it sounds. And the prisons of the Inquisitions, clearly not constructed after 1803, the range of the supposed History. In other words, Cretineau is drawing on yet other sources for his material. Which seems to make this citation WP:TERTIARY instead of WP:SECONDARY which would be more desirable.

I'm not sure what to make of any of this. I'm going to guess; that the material is (ultimately) WP:RS. In this case, the bio itself is wanting material to explain that his material was used to impugn the reputation of the church. At the very least, the bio is now missing that crucial information. Possibly more direct citations could/should be used here as well, instead of a purported Jesuit history from 1803 on. Student7 (talk) 19:32, 18 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Soviet Union

Why is there no mention of the Soviet Union and other Communist states for having torture chambers? Those countries rivaled such thug states as Nazi Germany (mentioned) and Imperialist Japan (not mentioned) for systematic violations of every human dignity. Pbrower2a (talk) 00:35, 4 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Agree, the omission is very odd. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.74.25 (talk) 01:55, 4 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Echo the sentiment expressed above. No mention whatsoever of confirmed used of torture by countries such as Vietnam at the Hỏa Lò Prison (infamously known as the Hanoi Hilton) is suggestive and odd to say the least.46.25.71.70 (talk) 16:18, 8 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Inquisition Section

The material in the section about the Inquisition is seriously questionable, starting with the fact that it doesn't refer to which branches of the Inquisition it discusses (Roman, Spanish or Portuguese) or what periods of history it is referring to.

The sources used for many of the citations in the section are secondary works from the 19th and early 20th century which do not, in turn, cite their own sources. Frederick Howard Wines' Punishment and Reformation (1910) contains thoroughly discredited information about the Inquisition (the Inquisition did not itself kill those it condemned, but handed them over to the secular government). He also conflates different institutions: the torture chambers in Nuremberg and Salzburg belonged to the city governments, not the Inquisition. Likewise, the source for the torture chamber in the Avignon Papal Palace is C.W. Heckethorn's The Secret Societies of All Ages and Countries (1875). 19th-century books about secret societies are not much use, except as primary sources demonstrating the dangers of paranoia: the room in question in Avignon was in fact a kitchen.

A more scholarly discussion of the Inquisition, with modern sources that do not buy into the Black Legend would be a great improvement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hail, Thane of Cawdor (talk • contribs) 19:31, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Pinochet mention quite dubious

The cited source is a rambling essay by a self-described VJ/DJ, with no apparent expertise in the subject, and is a mere assertion, lacking any actual evidence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.162.33.89 (talk) 04:28, 15 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I supplied ten new reliable sources and their quotations mentioning torture chambers. Please stop your edit-warring. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 04:42, 15 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, we're now at WP:CITEOVERKILL. List needs to be pared to three, as suggested by the policy. Student7 (talk) 15:06, 22 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That's one way to look at it. An alternative way to look at it is as just a simple method of avoiding edit-wars with editors thinking that Pinochet may not have had any torture chambers while avoiding lengthy arguments and OR. I prefer to err on the side of avoiding any edit-wars as it almost happened here. Another side of the CITEOVERKILL coin is that these references can also be used to expand the section as each contains information that can be added to expand the section on Chile's use of torture chambers during Pinochet's era. I was actually ready to do that until distracted by other considerations. I may yet do so but I don't want to make you wait. How urgently would you like them removed? Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 17:25, 22 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 19:20, 23 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Unreliable, to be removed

https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#The_secret_societies_of_all_ages_and_countries Xx236 (talk) 08:15, 1 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This description of torture chambers seems very dubious

This description seems dubious and appears to be based on a book by a Unitarian minister on "The Destiny of the Soul", which does not cite any clear reference. I suspect it should be replaced with something less melodramatic:

Historically, torture chambers were located in royal palaces, in castles of the nobility and even buildings belonging to the church. They featured secret trap-doors which could be activated to throw victims into dark dungeons where they remained and eventually died. The skeletal remains of people who disappeared were strewn on the floor of the hidden dungeons. Other times the dungeons under the trap-doors included pits of water where the victim was thrown to drown after a lengthy torture session in the chamber above. TowerNumberNine (talk) 03:55, 20 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Subject drift?

This article seems to have moved from a discussion of rooms used for torture to a more general discussion of torture procedures, methods, and users. For instance, the statement "The CIA has been found to torture prisoners at black sites around the world." says nothing about the features of the facilities used for torture, and only mentions the prisons that these torture chambers would be a part of. I propose that the article be cut down to focus on the subject. Please chime in with opinions--I'll wait to see your takes before making major changes. Tadzweil (talk) 14:37, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]