Talk:Tonkawa

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Pathetic

The German, Catalan, and even the Croatian articles have more information about the tribe than the English one. -18:03, 22 July 2006 User:Adamv88

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Fix this

"The tribe returned to Fort Griffin, Texas where they remained for the rest of the Civil War. After the war, the tribe was returned to Texas." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.166.163.235 (talk) 19:54, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Dubious statement

User:Rdenney had questions about the following statement, so I'm posting it here on the talk page, in case anyone wants to restore it to the main article with better citations. Yuchitown (talk) 16:53, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Tonkawas often visited the capital city of Austin during the days of the Republic of Texas and during early statehood.^[1] {{dead link|date=October 2024}} ^{[citation needed]} Sept. 12, 2024 members of the Tonkawa tribe from Oklahoma were in Austin for Austin-Tonkawa Friendship Day, a recognition of the friendship that has endured since Austin became the Texas Capital in 1839. The event was initiated by filmmaker Bob O’Dell who is working on a film about the Tonkawa (Tonkawa:They All Stay Together). O'Dell has made claims about the Tonkawa having camped in Austin's Republic Square in 1842-1844 to protect Austin from Comanche raids after much of Austin's population evacuated in response to the Mexican Army's temporary take over of nearby San Antonio, Texas. Those claims rest on a single sentence from a 1924 article by W.C. Walsh.^[2] The Walsh article however makes an obvious and significant error making it uncredible for the claim. O'Dell, not a historian, made additional historical errors and speculations for which no proof was found by the Travis County Historical Commission while doing research for a Texas Historical Commission marker for the claimed camp. During the Republic of Texas period 1842-1844, primary and scholarly sources place the main camp of the Tonkawa in Bastrop, Texas rather than Austin. The camp Walsh referred to may have been after the Tonkawa massacre of 1862 when remnants of the tribe migrated back into Texas, including Austin, circa 1863 to 1865 during the Civil War. After the Civil War, Texas, a Confederate state, was then occupied by Union forces and as many as 135 Tonkawa were escorted back north out of Austin in 1867 by the Indian agent.^[3]^[4]^[5]^[6]^[7]^[8]^[9]

References

^ Barnes, Michael "With time, the story of the Tonkawa tribe evolves" The Washington Post (February 13, 2014)
^ Austin American-Statesman, 20 Apr 1924, Sun, Page 8.
^ Denney, Richard. Travis County Historical Commission Records. https://traviscountyarchives.starter1ua.preservica.com/uncategorized/IO_14f3de35-7799-416f-b671-72e6e2ad1c00/
^ Winfrey, Dorman H. & Day, James M. The Indian Papers of Texas and the Southwest 1825-1916, Volume 4, pp.188-195
^ Tonkawa Tribe of Oklahoma, Tribal histories project. Developed in conjunction with tribe. Texas Department of Transportation (TxDOT). https://www.txdot.gov/business/resources/environmental/compliance-toolkits/historic-resources/tribal-histories.html
^ Himmel, Kelly F. The Conquest of the Karankawas and the Tonkawas, 1821-1859, Elma Dill Russell Spencer Series in the West and Southwest, Texas A&M University Press, 1999, p.82
^ Bollaert, William. William Bollaert’s Texas. University of Oklahoma Press, 1956, pp.188-199. Compilation of journal entries from 1842 to 1844, edited by Eugene Hollon.
^ The Morning Star. (Houston, Tex.) May 6, 1843. "The main body of the [Tonkawa] tribe is still in the vicinity of Bastrop..."
^ Dallas Herald, Saturday, May 18, 1867, p.3. Letter written by John Lovejoy, Indian agent for the U.S. in charge of escorting 135 Tonkawa from Austin back north to Jacksboro.

Greetings - Im not familiar with the "dubious statement" section, but the only thing I was pointing out was that Michael Barnes article link was broken, and since I couldn't see the sources needed a primary citation. I don't think this whole paragraph is "dubious". We (the Travis County Historical Commission) did this research, and it is an important part of the Tonkawa story. The Tonkawa are so core to Austin history we had a day w/ proclamation of the mayor, county commissioners, etc. plus the tribe in. O'Dell's claims in the film are definitely a problem (he read to much into a news article from 1924) and we are trying to sort that out. But the news article (Walsh 1924) does fill in some info on the Tonkawa in Austin. Maybe I should re-work to omit the O'Dell bits, but it's hard to separate the recent Austin-Tonkawa Friendship Day from all this. There are bits to this story -- the Tonkawa were definitely in Austin as the Indian Papers clearly show w/ 135 being moved out in 1867. Please Advise .. Rich Denney, Vice-Chair Travis County Historical Commission and Texas Historical Commission history and archeology steward. rdenney (talk) 17:38, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I will add, because the Tonkawa were literally pushed to the brink of extinction in 1862, there are holes in the history that were not (are not) covered in the Tonkawa article as currently presented. They deserve a fuller telling of their story and that does include Austin, Bastrop .. Central Texas in general. It's just a matter of being sure we get it right and unfortunately O'Dell just read a bit too much into the 1924 article. rdenney (talk) 17:41, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry. I misunderstood completely! I'll reformat and re-add. Although all the nowiki commentary was confusing and should probably be relegated to the talk page. Yuchitown (talk) 18:10, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

re: "During American Civil War, the Tonkawa allied with the Confederacy. Texas also declared for the Confederacy, so the federal troops at the fort received orders to march to Fort Leavenworth, Kansas, leaving the Indians at the Wichita Agency unprotected. On October 24, 1862, Pro-Union tribes, including the Delaware, Shawnee, and Osage decimated the Tonkawa in the Tonkawa Massacre."

This I would elaborate upon: we know after the Tonkawa Massacre some migrated to Austin .. then in 1867 the Indian Papers show as many as 135 were moved out of Austin back north to Jacksboro.

Also, did I imagine there was a section for the 21st Century before? The tribe recently acquired Sugar Loaf Mtn in Milam County which they take as part of their creation story. I thought I saw that previously but maybe not? rdenney (talk) 18:14, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And sorry, we may have messages crossing in real time. I'll wait and see what you add back, then we can take it from there? rdenney (talk) 18:16, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The 21st century wouldn't be under "history" since they are current issues. I moved the Sugar Loaf Mound info to a "land" section. This article could use a lot more information about the current tribe today. Yuchitown (talk) 18:22, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If information is bad (like O'Dell), don't comment about it in the article, you can just remove it or move it over here to the talk page. Thanks so much! Yuchitown (talk) 18:23, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Barnes, Michael "With time, the story of the Tonkawa tribe evolves" The Washington Post (February 13, 2014)

[2] Austin American-Statesman, 20 Apr 1924, Sun, Page 8.

[3] Denney, Richard. Travis County Historical Commission Records. https://traviscountyarchives.starter1ua.preservica.com/uncategorized/IO_14f3de35-7799-416f-b671-72e6e2ad1c00/

[4] Winfrey, Dorman H. & Day, James M. The Indian Papers of Texas and the Southwest 1825-1916, Volume 4, pp.188-195

[5] Tonkawa Tribe of Oklahoma, Tribal histories project. Developed in conjunction with tribe. Texas Department of Transportation (TxDOT). https://www.txdot.gov/business/resources/environmental/compliance-toolkits/historic-resources/tribal-histories.html

[6] Himmel, Kelly F. The Conquest of the Karankawas and the Tonkawas, 1821-1859, Elma Dill Russell Spencer Series in the West and Southwest, Texas A&M University Press, 1999, p.82

[7] Bollaert, William. William Bollaert’s Texas. University of Oklahoma Press, 1956, pp.188-199. Compilation of journal entries from 1842 to 1844, edited by Eugene Hollon.

[8] The Morning Star. (Houston, Tex.) May 6, 1843. "The main body of the [Tonkawa] tribe is still in the vicinity of Bastrop..."

[9] Dallas Herald, Saturday, May 18, 1867, p.3. Letter written by John Lovejoy, Indian agent for the U.S. in charge of escorting 135 Tonkawa from Austin back north to Jacksboro.

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