Talk:Tommy Farr

"Professional name"

With respect, Hogyncymru, I'm removing your attribution "Bach" as included in Tommy's "professional name". I've never come across that one in any authentic news report report or in his ghosted autobiography Thus Farr. And 1952 (with its unhappy comeback bout?) was post-retirement. I couldn't access your Daily Mirror paywalled citation, but WP:V surely calls for something more reliable. Bjenks (talk) 09:55, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

When new information comes to light, it is important to include this to reflect to most accurate representation, autobiographies are not 100% accurate or/and complete and some details may be omitted due to oversights, mistakes or deliberately so, the nickname 'bach' was obviously in use because of its context that he was a person of tall stature and the 'bach' (small) was used as sarcasm. https://imgur.com/a/L2G17hC here's a link to a screenshot of the article I referenced, therefore with this evidence, I will be restoring the article to include the 'bach', archives give us new information all the time. regards Hogyncymru (talk) 01:24, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

I say, Hogyn bach, coming myself from a Clydach Vale family with connections to the Farrs, my boxing Dad was also affectionately known as "Dai bach", and my mother as "Jeanie fach". But, as in this citation no-one in Wales would regard such an everyday usage as a "nickname". If, as you claim, there is "clear evidence" for your edit, one would expect to find something of the sort in a Google search for "Tommy Bach Farr", but that proves to be a disappointment. I plan to re-revert in 3 days unless you can produce some more substantial evidence. Diolch, Bjenks (talk) 05:29, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

A 'google search' is insufficient because very little has been written on that nickname, thus; why I found evidence supporting it, I understand that 'bach' is a common nickname in Wales, however, to see the fans shout it out in one of his boxing matches affirms that he was known by it, are you really saying that even when evidence is supplied saying that he was known as and written in newspapers as "Tommy 'bach' Farr" you're willing to reject it?, I'm reverting it back. Hogyncymru (talk) 13:55, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

This is too trivial a matter for two folk to carry on for ever, so I'll ask some other editors to consider and forge a consensus for us both to accept, eh? Bjenks (talk) 03:39, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

So the first thing to say that the run of 4 references (bare URL references too) in the lead is not great. Per WP:OVERCITE and MOS:CITELEAD that needs to be reduced or eliminated. However, as those are the sources being relied upon for this edit, let's look at them:

• Daily Mirror - Saturday 10 May 1952 - [1]. "...very proud that Tommy "Bach" Farr..." - suggests that "Bach" is a known nickname, although WP:PRIMARY
• Daily Herald - Friday 10 April 1953 - [2]. "Great was my disappointment when Tommy Bach Farr..." - likewise suggests it is a known nickname, again WP:PRIMARY
• Daily Mirror - Tuesday 11 November 1952 - [3] - The sergeants were delighted with Tommy Bach Exceeds my free access to this resource and other access still pending. I presume this is like the two above. Like the other two, suggests a nickname but WP:PRIMARY and not clear in this report whether it was just a play on his Welshness, as previous mentiones in the same article did not call him that.
• The Newcastle Sun, Wed 6 Dec 1950 [Page 16] - [4] - The crowd surged forward yelling "Tommy Bach" - WP:PRIMARY and no to this one. The epithet "bach" is so singularly Welsh that hearing it applied in such circumstances would prove nothing about any kind of nickname.

So all the sources are primary, but on the face of it, it may be that this was a known and accepted nickname. Hogyncymru makes the point that it was a deliberate and ironic reference to his height, and that sounds perfectly plausible. Yet, if that were so, wouldn't it be mentioned somewhere by someone? There ought to be an article or reference somewhere that says "he was known as Tommy bach, an ironic reference to his height" or similar. If we don't have that secondary reference, then our assertion of that very fact is WP:OR. We are taking the primary sources and inferring from those something that is not made clear in any of these sources. Per WP:ONUS, The responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content. Thus this should be removed until a suitable secondary reference is found that can support it. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:44, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

An in-depth and reasonable response, you make it obvious that he was indeed called that on several articles yet need further evidence to back it up which is understandable, Bjenks wasn't doing this, he/she didn't look at the evidence and based his/her edit on personal feeling, he/she should not base their edits because they cannot access an article if it's behind a paywall and to revert it based on this inability to 'vet' it is unprofessional, he/she should never use that as an excuse. Hogyncymru (talk) 19:11, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

I agree that Sirfurboy🏄 resolved this issue in a most competent, wikiable way, and I'm sorry if my own efforts fell short. However, I won't accept being called unfair or "unprofessional". In fact, I looked much deeper into the evidence than the insignificant Daily Mirror paywall reference, and added some better sources to the article and discussion. Hogyncymru, FYI, there are some useful clues to my identity and gender on my user page, Bjenks (talk) 03:30, 15 March 2023 (UTC)