Talk:Tommaso dei Cavalieri

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Lovers

The first part of the final sentence in the lede ("The two men remained lifelong lovers, and Cavalieri was present at the artist's death") isn't reflected in the PDF given as a source.

Two relevant paragraphs from the PDF:

Even though this might sound like a letter between lovers to our modern ears, and Michelangelo often referred to Cavalieri’s beauty in his writing, it is unlikely the two men were ever involved physically. Other writers of the time also remarked upon Cavalieri’s striking physical appearance, and in the sixteenth century, such beautiful young men were often held up for public praise as examples of God’s spirit in human form.

In 1533, Cavalieri wrote appreciatively to Michelangelo that he had been studying the drawings which the artist had given him for two hours a day. The friendship between the two men would endure for thirty years. Cavalieri was present at the artist’s death in 1564 and subsequently helped to realise some of his architectural schemes. He so valued the drawings by Michelangelo that Vasari was to say: ‘…in truth he rightly treasures them as relics’.

I've added a citation needed tag for now. Barring any reliable source appearing I'll rephrase the sentence to describe a platonic friendship in accordance with the current source. 122.59.64.248 (talk) 02:38, 10 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This has gone a week without comment. So I (being the above IP user, for clarity) have made the appropriate change to the article. 203.97.181.188 (talk) 21:42, 17 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Listed Birth Year for Tommaso dei Cavalieri

Dear Wikipedia Editors and Readers,

I do not understand how the birth year for dei Cavalieri can be listed as "1509". In the biography portion of this article, it clearly states that his parents were married in November of 1509 and that his brother was born first. In the first sentence of the biography portion of the article, it clearly states that the exact year of his birth is not known and that he was born sometime between 1512 and 1519, so why has no one corrected the birth year? Instead of leaving it at "1509", it should be changed to read "c. 1512-1519", should it not? I am not going to revise this myself, as I am not an expert in dei Cavalieri, his life, or his family. If I knew with more certainty, I would change it myself, but I leave that to an art history expert. Randal J. Loy, Kansas City, Missouri

Addition: If he is born between 1512-1519 and he met Michelangelo in 1532, he would have been 13-20 years old and not 23 years old as stated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:A44A:2956:1:C9DD:D0DF:DA8A:51CC (talk) 21:02, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Picture of Cavalieri

Shouldn’t we add this famous picture of Cavalieri to the article? A drawing by his beloved Michelangelo, 1532, Musée Bonnat, Bayonne. Chip-chip-2020 (talk) 08:36, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

File:Tommaso de‘ Cavalieri.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chip-chip-2020 (talk • contribs) 08:41, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Chip-chip-2020: There is no certainty about the abraded and damaged drawing in the Bonnat Museum. There have always been doubts about the dating, subject and authorship of the drawing: possibly it is a portrait of Andrea Quaratesi by da Volterra; or it might possibly be a portrait of Cavalieri by Michelangelo. Anyway, the improperly licensed tumblr image is up for deletion. Attaching a precise date of 1532 is not supported by any documentary evidence; it's WP:OR. Mathsci (talk) 12:16, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The person on the image (you deleted) is identified by Stephanie Buck already in „Michelangelo’s Dream“, London 2010, as Tommaso de‘ Cavalieri.^[1] Chip-chip-2020 (talk) 14:54, 24 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The eminent art historian Mary Garrard gave a different view in 2014. See Talk:Michelangelo#16th-century portraits and the discussion there. Mathsci (talk) 20:23, 24 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

And in footnotes[1][2] to his 2013 book "Michelangelo: the Achievement of Fame", the late Courtauld Institute art historian Michael Hirst indicated that the identification of the portrait (Plate 46) is not certain. [3] Mathsci (talk) 21:02, 24 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have skimmed through my copy of the Courtauld catalogue, "Michelangelo's Dream". Looking at the illustrations, there's no drawing of Cavalieri. There's one digitised letter by Cavalieri in the catalogue (page 87), preceded by an Italian transcription and English translation (page 84). Cavalieri discusses vomiting, fever and fears for his health, but there are no protestations of carnal love. He writes: "My one and only Lord, in the past days I received one of your letters which pleased me very much, both to learn that you are well and also to be assured that you will return soon, and I am very sorry not to have been able to reply." He mentions Michelangelo's sonnet which restored his health; in the Vatican he publicly displayed Michelangelo's drawings of the Phaeton, Ganymede and Tityus; and the Pope and Cardinal de'Medici proposed the last two be made in crystal. He concludes: "The next day I paid your respects to Fra Sebastiani, and he recommends to you a thousand times. Nothing else, except he begs you to return. From your affectionate Thomao Cavaliere."

The catalogue contains art drawings of the highest quality; and the accompanying essays by distinguished art historians seem extremely erudite. Michelangelo's sonnets are discussed along with facsimiles. Mathsci (talk) 11:19, 28 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Conclusion: The museum, which holds the drawing, confirm it shows Cavalieri, the curator of the exhibition as well („Michelangelo‘s portrait of Cavalieri“)^[2], and some think something else. So we should show it with a text like „thought to be Cavalieri“ (the same way like it’s done in other Wiki-Articles)Chip-chip-2020 (talk) 11:25, 17 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The softback 2010 Courtauld Gallery catalogue "Michelangelo's Dream" was edited by Stephanie Buck with the assistance of Tatitiani Bissolati. There are essays by Stephanie Buck, Michael Bury, Joanna Milk Mac Farland, Françoise Viotte, and Matthias Vollmer; the catalogue is written by Stephanie Buck, Michael Bury, Caroline Campbell, and Carol Plazzotta. There are no plates in the catalogue with portraits of Cavalieri, despite Chip-chip-2020 claims otherwise, repeated every 2 months. Mathsci (talk) 23:21, 17 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Mathsci but it refers to this drawingm, which you keep deleting and for which you keep changing the data. Here's another group (!) of scholars, including Joannides, which agree that the drawing is showing Cavalieri.^[3] Perhaps {{admin backlog}}Hammersoft or User:Andrew Davidson could help here? Thank you!Chip-chip-2020 (talk) 08:54, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure why I've been pinged for this but, as it happens, I have visited the Courtauld gallery in the past and may have some photos. I'll look into it when I get a chance but don't hold your breath. Andrew🐉(talk) 10:21, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) Already on Talk:Michelangelo (here and here) and on this page, two months ago, there has been a discussion about identifying a drawing of Cavalieri mentioned in Vasari's "Lives": so far no properly authenticated drawing has been identified definitively, so at the moment pinning one down is WP:original research. (See, however, the book by Michael Hirst mentioned in the edits two months ago.) As already mentioned previously, art historians Paul Joannides, in 2003, and Mary Garrard, in 2014, have proposed drawings that might correspond to Vasari's text. In general, however, illustrations for sculptures, paintings and drawings of Michelangelo are only used on wikipedia when they are of the highest quality and where there are no doubts about attribution. The four drawings dedicated to Cavalieri are quintessential examples.

Neither Hammersoft nor Colonel Warden has edited articles on Cavalieri or Michelangelo, so it's unclear why Chip-chip-2020 is seeking editorial assistance. On the other hand, Chip-chip-2020 has been advised several times by Johnuniq (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) that adding WP:UNDUE sexuality-related content to articles on the life and works of Michelangelo, Frédéric Chopin and their associates, such as Tytus Woyciechowski or Cavalieri, appears to be single purpose advocacy.[4][5][6] In particular Chip-chip-2020 has been informed: "I will block you if there is further disruption or a long-term edit war." Mathsci (talk) 10:38, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Buck, Stephanie (2010). Michelangelo's Dream. Stephanie Buck, Tatiana Bissolati, Courtauld Institute Galleries. London: Courtauld Gallery in association with Paul Holberton. p. 81. ISBN 978-1-907372-05-6. OCLC 551673496.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: date and year (link)
^ Buck, Stephanie (2010). Michelangelo's Dream. Stephanie Buck, Tatiana Bissolati, Courtauld Institute Galleries. London: Courtauld Gallery in association with Paul Holberton. p. 81. ISBN 978-1-907372-05-6. OCLC 551673496.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: date and year (link)
^ Joannides, Paul (2003). Michel-Ange, élèves et copistes (in French). Véronique Goarin, Catherine Scheck, Musée du Louvre. Département des arts graphiques, Musée d'Orsay. Paris: Réunion des musées nationaux. p. 253. ISBN 2-7118-4044-1. OCLC 53434968.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: date and year (link)

[1] Buck, Stephanie (2010). Michelangelo's Dream. Stephanie Buck, Tatiana Bissolati, Courtauld Institute Galleries. London: Courtauld Gallery in association with Paul Holberton. p. 81. ISBN 978-1-907372-05-6. OCLC 551673496.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: date and year (link)

[2] Buck, Stephanie (2010). Michelangelo's Dream. Stephanie Buck, Tatiana Bissolati, Courtauld Institute Galleries. London: Courtauld Gallery in association with Paul Holberton. p. 81. ISBN 978-1-907372-05-6. OCLC 551673496.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: date and year (link)

[3] Joannides, Paul (2003). Michel-Ange, élèves et copistes (in French). Véronique Goarin, Catherine Scheck, Musée du Louvre. Département des arts graphiques, Musée d'Orsay. Paris: Réunion des musées nationaux. p. 253. ISBN 2-7118-4044-1. OCLC 53434968.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: date and year (link)

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