Talk:Tomislav, King of Croatia/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Errors in this article

First of all Tomislav is not mentioned in D.A.I there are no evidence that he was this mighty croat monarch. There are in FACT no physical evidence of his existence in croatia, no scriptures or even statues. All other kings of croatia have left some sort of evidence of their rule......not Tomislav.

The stuff written here like the size of his army is probably the stupidest thing i have ever seen on Wikipedia. Where are the sources of him holding such a huge force? The force of this size was not possible to produce by any other far greater empire at the time. I think this article needs to be rewritten by unbiased writers, as it is now it reeks of Croat propaganda.

The Turkish empire could not produce 160 000 soldiers.....what is next? King Tomislav emplying cyborgs and aliens to his forces? Please guys, read some books.

I challenge ANY croatian to give me ANY source that prooves that Tomislav existed and had that huge army. This article is nothing but a fairytale. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.214.204.23 (talk) 09:06, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I gather that the silence here is because this "king" is a myth and has never actually existed........ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.214.204.23 (talk) 18:55, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.214.204.164 (talk) 13:36, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Tomislav is not mentioned in the D.A.I. but huge army does. You should read the fifth paragraph of the De Administrando Imperio chapter 31. Army size is probably overestimated. It may be stupidest thing you have ever seen on Wikipedia, and just propaganda of the Constantine VII. as you say, but it was written in D.A.I. and we cannot now denied it because looks stupid.

English translation of the fifth paragraph of the 31. chapter of De Administrando Imperi:

"In baptized Croatia are the inhabited cities of Nona, Belgrade, Belitzin. Skordona, Chlebena, Stolpon, Tenin, Kori, Klaboka. Baptized Croatia musters as many as 60 thousand horse and 100 thousand foot, and galleys up to 80 and cutters up to 100. The galleys carry 40 men each, the cutters 20 each, and the smaller cutters 10 each." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.164.156.208 (talk) 10:47, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

So why even consider and write about Tomislav as this great ruler if he is not mentioned in D.A.I? Where are the sources for this article? Tomislav never even left one single trail after himself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.230.20.69 (talk) 09:24, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Ah, so many Serbs who failed history class There are evidences and sources. If you have reliable sources denying anything written in this article, feel free to edit it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.138.229.90 (talk) 14:09, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

I am not a serb, and if there are any evidence or sources how come this article lacks such? Typical croat neo-ustasha propaganda. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.227.113.148 (talk) 06:14, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

church branches in 928

At the time of his death there was discord in the country over whether the Croatian Catholic Church or the Latin Catholic Church would be legally accepted by the state.

This was in 928... who headed both branches? Wasn't this just an issue of which rites to use, rather than which church hierarchy to have, i.e. like bishop Grgur of Nin's use of Slavic rite? --Joy [shallot] 10:31, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Changed it to:

At the time of his death there was discord in the country over whether the liturgical language of the Roman Catholic Church in Croatia would be Latin or Croatian.

Hopefully that's better. Sometimes I use English sources (because it's easier), to my own peril. -thewanderer 1:35, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

De Administrando Imperio

Is there any mention of Tomislav in DAI? It's supposed to have been contemporaneous. --Joy [shallot] 11:30, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

You bet, just tell me what you wanna know from it, my friend. --HolyRomanEmperor 17:04, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Exactly where is he mentioned in De Administrando Imperio, i have yet to find his name mentioned in this work. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.214.204.164 (talk) 11:33, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Tomislav is not mentioned in DAI. According to Goldstein 1995, he is only mentioned in:

two letters from the pope
Historia Salonitana by Thomas Archidiaconus
Sclavorum Regnum or Chronicle of the Priest of Duklja.

--dnik ► 02:27, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Picture

I'm not sure how to correct this mistake, so I'm doing it this way. The painting under which says "King Tomislav of Croatia" is not Tomislav but King Dmitar Zvonimir of Croatia. This is one of King Tomislav: http://www.hr/darko/gif/tmslv.jpg

and here's a link to a page where both photos are from: http://www.hr/darko/etf/krek.html Artist of both paintings is Kristian Kreković.

I removed that picture. It's a little ridiculous. --DanielCD 05:47, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Who are you to call it ridiculous? That was a painting of a Croatian king made by famous Croatian painter. I guess if something isn't up to your esthetic standard it shouldn't be here.

Put on one of these up:

http://www.hr/darko/gif/tmslv.jpg

http://www.hr/darko/gif/tmsl.jpg

http://nkhrvatskivitez.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/kingtomm.jpg

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/597/m0589xl.jpg

Lol, that's not a painting. It's a photograph of some guy at a keg party or something. Is it you? --DanielCD 15:38, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

No, there was a painting before someone replaced it with a photo of that guy. So, will you please put one from the links above, preferably the first one. Thank you.

I've deleted the image from the page, as it is clearly not a tenth century person. I didn't upload a new one since I could not track down copyright information on the above images (although I didn't spend much time trying). --Hansnesse 02:12, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Sources

This article is full of far-strung assumptions and isn't backed by literary evidence. First of all, no mention is made of there being no surviving monuments that mention his name. Highly unusual if he was the first Croatian king and mighty ruler. Also, other rulers like Trpimir, Zvonimir, Branimir etc. all have at least a few surviving stone inscriptions which mention them.

Secondly, there are very few surviving literary sources that mention him, and they only mention him in a sentence or two. The emperor Constantine does not even mention his name in "De administrando imperio". The Croatian army did defeat Alogobotur, but there is no mention of Tomislav in that. The text mentioning Tomislav defeating the Magyars mentions that he had an older brother who was an even stronger ruler than he was. This is not mentioned in any other text. Also, it says that the Magyar army was led by Attila (who knows what that may have meant).

"He was crowned king at the fields of Tomislavgrad in 925 by order of Pope John X" - where did you find the evidence of this? No source mentions Tomislav being crowned near Tomislavgrad. There is a mention in the Chronicle of the Priest of Doclea, but it says a ruler called "Svetopelek" being crowned there. This name does bot appear in any other source and it is questionable as to what the author was referring to. Tomislav wasn't named after king Tomislav, but after the son of king Alexander of Yugoslavia (who reigned in the period between the two world wars!). Also, there is absolutlej no evidence of him being crowned by the order of the pope. Actually, it is more likeley that he wore a byzantine crown (he fought against Bulgars, protected the serbian prince Zakary, was given the right to rule the dalmatian cities by the emperor of Constantinopole etc).

Finally, 100,000 infantry, 60,000 cavaliers, 80 large and 100 smaller battleships is a far too powerful army to be supported by a state the size of Tomislav's. Even the Frankish Empire at the height of its power couldn't raise such a force. There weren't any factories and a levee en masse system in the 10th century you know. Tomislav whould have been mighty even if he had an army 1/10 of its size. Also notice the infantry:cavalry ratio - highly unlikelty for the 10th century.

There, I reformulated some claims and verified most of the info. --Dijxtra 14:56, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

It is highly disputable if Tomislav was a king at all. He is reffered to as "rex" in papal sources but at that time it was a usual honorary title by which the pope would entitle any ruller. There is no evidence that he was every crowned a king. If I'm not mistaken the first Croat ruler to be crowned by a delegate of pope was Dmitar Zvonimir (as it is mentioned in the article on him), who was also the last independent Croatian ruller. There are good evidences that Zvonimir took the title of king and that he obtained the crown from pope (the usual method, and the only legitimate, in those days), which would be unnecesary if Tomislav had done this century and a half earlier and if his descendants were kings. It should at least be stated that his title of "king" is very doubtfull.

He was a self-proclaimed king(because of the power and size of his land). But there are many aspects why Vatican did not officialy made him the ruler of these land.(e.g. Splitski sabori...). But as far as i know the first croatian king to be crowned by a delegate of pope was Stjepan Drzislav. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.198.16.211 (talk) 04:40, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

greška do greške

Ljudi, ovo je katastrofa!! tomislav i bitka sa Simeonom su smijurija...Ovo ima toliko grešaka da se usereš! Npr. Battle of the Bosnian Highlands vođena, piše, on May 27, 927 ? A Simeon I je umro isti dan ?!! Simeon je umro nedugo (možda par dana, a možda i godina) poslije te bitke i sporazuma koji je postignut posredovanjem pape. Zatim, NIGDJE nema podataka o broju vojske u toj bitci!! A netko je ovdje uklopio podatak da je Tomislav u to doba raspolagao sa 100,000 pješaka, 60,000 konjanika i 180 brodova! Što je točno. Taj broj se spominje. Ali to nema veze sa spomenutom konkretnom bitkom! A odakle pretpostavka da je Tomislav možda otrovan po nalogu pape?!! Jednostavno, kako je Tomislav umro se ne zna. pa ONDA TREBA TAKO I NAPISATI I TOČKA. A ne pisati kome šta padne na pamet. Mogao bi tako tri dana... ne znam za onaj dio sa arapima, ali tu bi trebalo citirati neke izvore...ja za to nisam nikad čuo ni igdje pročitao! Neka me netko ispravi ak se varam. Boris Živ

Srbi

Sto se tice one Kategorije - to je zato sto je veliko broj srpskih izbjeglica prebjegao u Tomislavovu Hrvatsku - a to je prva pojava Srba u Hrvatskoj - pored velikog broja Srba koji su porobljeni odvedeni u Bugarsku i necega sto se spaslo bjezeci k Bizantiji. Kada je Caslav dosao u Srbiju, okupio je casicu od svega 50 ljudi sto je nasao u cijeloj Srbiji. Naravno, najveci dio je pozvan i mirno se vratio iz Hrvatske u Srbiju - ali Caslavljevi ljudi su zapamceni kao ucesnici u hrvatskoj vojsci (na Bici za Bosnu, npr.). Pored toga je i Tomislavovo staro tradicionalno hrvatsko-srpsko prijateljstvo jer je Hrvatska bila zastitnik Raske i dinasta iz porodice Vlastimirovic - to je i glavni razlog zasto su Bugari napali Hrvatsko kraljevstvo. Eto to je bio razlog sto dodah onu kategoriju... --HolyRomanEmperor 22:13, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Why was a message to the admins/mods on the article page?

I removed it. Feel free to rewrite it into the article. Rewrite, not revert. It's bad enough this article doesn't start with "The story of Tomislav is probably Croatian nationalist fiction", no need to degrade W further. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.198.8.211 (talk) 17:35, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Except that the "story of Tomislav" is definately not nationalist fiction, at least not as a whole. Truthfully, there is a major dispute over the coronation (see above), but almost all of what happened in his time (and is in the article) is based on historical records - more or less, not necessarily attributed to his name (that army size told by Constantine being an obvious exepction-as reliable). So, please, read a book and try not to post overly-disparging, irrelevant cliche comments in the future. Okay, guy ? Er-vet-en (say) 16:29, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Savia

ANother section should be added for discussing whether Pannonian Croatia/ Slavonia was then part of Croatia or Hungary. COz the sources are vague, and the archaeological evidence is rather interesting Hxseek (talk) 10:02, 10 November 2010 (UTC)