Talk:Tom Zubrycki

Contested deletion

Meets GNG. See you there if you want. --GreenC 14:37, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

List of films

1. . Don't link to external sites inline like this, rather use ref tags like this.
2. . Use as few sources and cites as possible ie. treat them as a group with a note at the top of the list.
3. . IMDB is not a reliable source. See WP:IMDB
4. . It's unclear if we should include films where his only role is Executive Producer. I'm not a film expert to know how significant it is.

References

-- GreenC 19:05, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Hi there, I believe that most of the issues flagged by the templates has been remedied:

!) The article has already been reduced in size by other volunteer editors, and proper reputable sources and citations have been added, 2)The tone of the article is from a neutral point of view and no longer reads like a promotional piece, 3)No payments were made in return for editing.

The article may still require clean-up, but I would suggest that the other templates be removed.

Thanks for your help. Tzub (talk) 01:21, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

As a first step, I think I'll need to go through every sentence and verify the citation supports it. This will take some time. If it doesn't verify, I'll tag that sentence, and you can suggest other sources, rewording or removals. After that, we can say the article has been verified, and anyone who still objects will need to say exactly to which words and sentences are a problem, rather than tagging the whole article at the top. -- GreenC 06:10, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

I added a couple tags to the lead section and early life section to get started. -- GreenC 06:19, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Lead section tags:

TAG 1

SOURCES:

https://www.wfcn.co/lists/documentary-filmmakers-of-australia

https://alchetron.com/Tom-Zubrycki

https://www.acmi.net.au/creators/20426--tom-zubrycki/

TAG 2

“Zubrycki was born in the UK” (which is a repetition of information in the first sentence of the first paragraph).

REPLACE THIS LINE WITH

“Zubrycki emigrated with his parents to Canberra, Australia in late 1955”.

SOURCES:

SEE paragraph 7 of

https://aipa.net.au/100th-birthday-anniversary-of-prof-jerzy-zubrzycki-the-father-of-australian-multiculturalism/

ALSO

The promise of diversity : the story of Jerzy Zubrzycki, architect of multicultural Australia / John Hartwell Williams and John Bond. PP 76 Grosvenor Books 2013

https://catalogue.nla.gov.au/catalog/7376708

TAG 3

Go to Wikpedia entry for Jerzy Zubrzycki. See first line in article, Also “Honours” section of article.

OTHER SOURCES:

SEE first para of

https://aipa.net.au/100th-birthday-anniversary-of-prof-jerzy-zubrzycki-the-father-of-australian-multiculturalism/

SEE also

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/320795668_Jerzy_Zubrzycki_the_'Father_of_Multiculturalism' Tzub (talk) 05:07, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Happy New Year. Just checking if you there are further citations you believe are needed to be checked/added within the article. I have selected and inserted source references for the 3 initial tags that you had identified. Many thanks again for your assistance. Tzub (talk) 04:22, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Ok, thank you. That all makes sense. Tzub (talk) 19:47, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

• Tag 1: The source for birth date is [1] and [2] and [3] which are all a copy-paste of Wikipedia itself. The same exact wording in each, which mirrors the wording on Wikipedia. We prefer magazines, books, journal articles, newspapers, because they have professional controls eg. fact checkers, editors. Many sites scrape content for free from Wikipedia, reformat it, then put their name on it.
• Tag 2: The first paragraph of a Wikipedia article is the "lead section" (See WP:LEAD). This is meant to summarize (repeat) information from the article body. It's sort of like a movie preview, to get readers interested in reading the entire article. It has the most important things that make the topic notable. The aipa.net.au source doesn't say Tom went with his father, but WP:COMMONSENSE says it's good enough. A better source would be good.
• Tag 3: I can't access the book but at least it's a book, and has page numbers, so reader who want to verify the information can do so. -- GreenC 05:01, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Round 2

I made the following edits: Special:Diff/1192148313/1193127897 Generally verified sources where possible, and converted citations in the career section to CS1|2 (cite web, cite news, cite magazine). I added some new tags with notes (mouse over the tag and it will pop up the reason).

There is one source that does not verify for "Zubrycki was employed as a commissioning editor at SBS-TV in 1996-1997" at [4]. Plus the problem in Tag 1 mentioned above. -- GreenC 05:56, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Many thanks for your 'clean-up'. Brilliant.

I would like to drop the sentence "Zubrycki was employed as a commissioning editor at SBS-TV in 1996-1997". This was a short term appointment and not specially significant.

re. Problem in Tag 1, I'm not sure what to do here short of sending you a PDF of my passport page which shows birthdate and location. I'm not able to find any secondary sources, except for a sentence: TOM ZUBRYCKI is the eldest son of a Polish immigrant family who settled in Canberra in 1955. In “About the Author” p3 of a published paper “The Changing Landscape of Australian Documentary".

https://www.academia.edu/108233225/The_Changing_Landscape_of_Australian_Documentary. This would also be a better source reference for Tag 4. Tzub (talk) 06:27, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Re. Tag 1. The only reliable, published source that I can find is the "UK and Ireland Outward Passenger Lists 1890-1960." from ancestry.com. This list shows that my father J.Zubrzycki made the voyage from England to Australia on the ship SS Orontes leaving London 13th December 1955. He is listed as one of the passengers as well as myself incl. my date of birth 12.10.1946. https://www.ancestry.com.au/imageviewer/collections/2997/images/41039_b001787-00111?treeid=&personid=&rc=&queryId=681655f5-f7fe-4f7f-969e-749344cf44d0&usePUB=true&_phsrc=VLb10&_phstart=successSource&pId=142198413 Tzub (talk) 11:39, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

We can't use this because it's a primary source see WP:BLPPRIMARY: "Do not use public records that include personal details, such as date of birth...". For privacy reasons, we only state birth dates when they are published in a secondary source like a book, newspaper or magazine -- but not archival records, birth certificates etc.. It may be we can't state the birth date. This is common on Wikipedia for living people. We can give a general idea, though, if a source gives an age at a particular point in time eg. "the film maker, a 23 year old from..". then we give a 2 year possible range of birth, like at Roy Price. -- GreenC 22:06, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Tzub, the further reading section looks like a collection of film reviews. That is really great, these are the sorts of secondary sources Wikipedia needs. They should be incorporated into the article, it's a huge number of sources to expand the article with. The way to do it, chronologically, something like "On xxxdate, Zubrycki released yyyfilm about zzztopic, it was reviewed in gggmagazine by kkkauthor who commented it was <pithy summary of reviewers opinion>" .. on Wikipedia for artists, opinions by reviewers are the gold standard when creating new content. -- GreenC 22:30, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

re. expanding the article. Very good idea. I'll organise this next week, and will send you a draft to check prior to publishing.

Re. Birth date, this is a reliable secondary source: ACMI, the Australian Centre of the Moving Image, gives my birth year as 1946. https://www.acmi.net.au/creators/20426--tom-zubrycki/.

Also The National Film & Sound Archive recorded several interviews with me over the years. Here’s a reference to my birth year:

https://www.collection.nfsa.gov.au/search/credits.id=1320801&credits.role=Interviewee Tzub (talk) 11:58, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

GreenC, Re. My recent edits, “Promise Of Diversity”, the book about my father by John Bond, specifically refers to me being born in 1946 (page 67). Later in the same book it refers to the whole family embarking on the ship SS Orontes bound for Australia in 1955 from England (p76).  Am happy to supply scans of the pages as proof. Also, my birthdate is include in a recent online advert; http://www.melbournecinematheque.org/category/present-year/the-seeds-of-change-the-documentaries-of-tom-zubrycki/

I am also following up your earlier suggestions about expanding the article. I'll need a little more time.

Also, would it be possible for the templates to be removed. Thanks again. Tzub (talk) 05:05, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

That's fine, anyone can verify the book if they want to get a copy, you don't have to prove it to me or anyone, if someone challenges a fact the burden is on them to verify it. You can quote a sentence or two with the |quote= parameter, it's up to you to include quotes from sources as a convenience. It's a good idea if the cited fact is controversial or likely to be disputed in the future. -- GreenC 05:32, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Hi Tzub, there are a couple "red flags" in the new text. One of them is links to an external website directly in the text of the article, versus a properly formatted citation. COI editors (in general) will often do this to hide links, so they are not visible in the footnotes at the bottom of the article. It can be a way to hide promotional links. You don't want to look like you are hiding anything, because you don't have anything to hide. For example the links to "Friends and Enemies" is a direct external link with no citation information. It should be converted to a footnoted reference using {{cite web}} so it's clear to readers what the publication is. -- GreenC 00:37, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

GreenC, Thank you for your note. I'll work on that and make the necessary corrections. Tzub (talk) 07:06, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

You can use this as a basic blank template, to cut and paste:

<ref>{{cite web | last= | first= | date= | title= | website= | url= | access-date= | quote= }}</ref>

If there is nothing available for name, date or quote - delete those arguments. access-date is today's date in ISO eg. 2024-01-19 -- GreenC 17:30, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Photos

The article could include (more) photos, if they are in the public domain or similar Creative Commons license. The photos need to be taken/owned by yourself and uploaded to Commons. I can help with the steps if you want to release any photos. Video, also. -- GreenC 04:01, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks GreenC. I like the idea of photos. There are 3 or 4 that I own that are appropriate which I'll upload. I'll make a selection, and do that next week. I may need your assistance in inserting them. Tzub (talk) 03:57, 23 January 2024 (UTC)