Talk:Tom Simpson/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Tom Simpson. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Category:Drug related deaths

I'm inclined to add the article to the above-named category. Objections? Matt Gies 03:08, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Inconsistent article

The lead says no trace of amphetamine in his body. Further down the article it says "It confirmed five days later that Simpson had traces of amphetamine in his body." 212.247.86.210 (talk) 14:10, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Opening text

The opening text seems to mention only his profession and death, surely it should also say he was the most successful UK cyclist, was World Road Race Champion, the first UK cyclist to fully integrate into the continental racing scene etc? Compare the opening text here and the article on Marco Pantani. 109.154.46.201 (talk) 16:08, 17 February 2011 (UTC)‎

Is it right to say he was "until the success of Bradley Wiggins in the 2012 Tour de France, the most successful English road racing cyclist of the post-war years"? They both won very big, but different, races. I don't think one can say winning the Tour de France and the time trial at the Olympics makes one more succesfull than winning the road world championship, Milan-San Remo, Tour of Flanders and Tour of Lombardy. Just to name a few races they won. 77.169.218.39 (talk) 20:59, 7 January 2013‎ (UTC)

Death section too long

So many quotes from 3rd parties and their detailed explanations make the section confusing and uninteresting to an average reader. It should be more straightforward. The section on the death of River Phoenix can be taken as an example. Sub40Hz (talk) 19:35, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

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1959 Giro di Lombardia

I'm not sure what happen to Simpson at the 1959 Giro di Lombardia (Tour of Lombardy). This is what I've found:

Museo del Ciclismo (in Italian) – "Eleven brave (including Simpson, forced as soon as possible, however, the yield from a puncture) attack shortly before Varese and between the general disinterest you install at the head of the race." (Not in the results)
Mr Tom: True Story of Tom Simpson, p 84 – "...although he finished the race, his riding was rather subdued."
Cycling is My Life, p 74 – "...took part in the Tour of Lombardy and the Trophy Barrachi for the first time in Italy. In the latter...".

He doesn't appear in any results online. Thoughts? Bald Boris 18:28, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Here's a link to the article the day after the race from La Stampa (in italian). I don't know if it mentions Simpson or not. La Stamp article. I was trying to check the L'Unita article for that day, but I couldn't reach the archive page for some reason. Disc Wheel (Malk + Montributions) 01:50, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for that. It mentions him, but not if he retired or finshed. "In Cittiglio, the advantage of the avant-garde - from which disappeared Simpson for drilling - already exceeds the per minute and is of the 45" at the foot of the hill that leads to Grantola." The 19 October edition of L'Unita says "There is no peace. The stampede is continuous. On the forefront of the race, now illuminated by the sun, rise Simpson, Casati, Fallarini, Anglade, Saint, Gismondi, Sorgeloos, Pambianco, Rolland, Bisilliat, Grncrych. The patrol loses Simpson, betrayed by a flat tire, and passes from Cittiglio with 1'25" lead." He is missing from the L'ordine d'arrivo. So from this I gather he punctured and retired. This makes me wonder what else in Mr Tom: True Story of Tom Simpson (written by Simpson's nephew) is wrong. In the palmares section of the book I found some results that differ to ones online. I don't know who to believe any more. Bald Boris 16:10, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

I'd just make sure that you double check with a newspaper source to make sure all of what he says is accurate. Disc Wheel (Malk + Montributions) 19:36, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Tom Simpson/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Khazar2 (talk · contribs) 16:20, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

I'll be glad to take this one; I apologize that you've had to wait so long for a reviewer. I hope to post initial comments in the next 1-5 days. Thanks in advance for all your work on it! -- Khazar2 (talk) 16:20, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for accepting. It was worth the wait to get an experienced reviewer! Bald Boris 14:10, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

I haven't made very far in yet, but so far so good. It looks like you've done a good job both writing and sourcing this. A few small points as I go along: -- Khazar2 (talk) 13:08, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

This is far too trivial to affect the article's GA status, but the varying punctuation in "Bordeaux–Paris" and "Milan – San Remo" is slightly distracting. I see that the target articles do this in varying ways, but perhaps one of these links could be piped to maintain this article's consistency in style.

Totally agree with you. The issue is with Milan – San Remo, the rest have no spaces. See Talk:Milan – San Remo#Article name. Bald Boris 14:10, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

"this lad with shock of hair thundering up the hill past me" -- is there a word missing here? ("a" shock of hair?)

Done Bald Boris 14:10, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

"as a strategic move favouring Sheil" -- I don't quite understand what this means. Are he and Sheil on the same team? Or is Simpson's manager deliberately throwing the race so that Sheil can win for another team?

This was changed during the copyedit. Simpson was forced to race to make Dalton race and tire. Bald Boris 14:10, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

"His last words to his mother were" -- is this literally the last time he ever spoke to his mother? -- Khazar2 (talk) 13:08, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

The last words spoken before his move. Bald Boris 14:10, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the responses, and sorry I've been slow in completing the review; our Internet's out and I'm catching up at coffee shops. More soon, though-- Khazar2 (talk) 14:37, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

I took out "squared his shoulders" and "threw caution to the winds" per WP:IDIOM (part of criterion 1b)--let me know if my substitutions catch your meaning. Stepping away from the keyboard again, but hope to finish later today. -- Khazar2 (talk) 15:59, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

I notice I get a mediawiki error message often when I try to save an edit to this page. I suspect this is due to the high number of templates on the page (300 or so references, plus all the distance conversion templates). It's probably not worth fixing in this one, but if you tackle another article of this length, you might consider just doing manual references ("Smith 2000, p. 10" etc.).
"Motto gave him part of his food, " - I assume this should be Motta? That's a classy competitor to feed his opponent

Done Bald Boris 21:45, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

"1966: Curse of the rainbow jersey" -- this subheader isn't really explained by the text--did Simpson believe the rainbow jersey brought him bad luck? Is the rainbow jersey said to be bad luck generally?

It's in general. There's even a book on it. I've added text, please check it for grammar. Bald Boris 02:37, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

"Simpson 2007, p. 12–13. " -- should this be 2009? It doesn't link to a citation

Done Bald Boris 21:45, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

The citations pointing to "Williams, Nicola; Le Nevez, Catherine (2007)" need their years made consistent for the links to work

Done Bald Boris 21:45, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't see any neutrality problems with the article's current state, but still need to do more thorough source check.

I tried real hard not be, but I'm a fan, so it's inevitable. I could have gone to town on the doping. Bald Boris 02:37, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure about using a documentary as a reliable source. It counts as published, but I'm not sure how to evaluate whether it has "a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy". Any thoughts? We can always ask at WP:RS/N.

I'm not too sure. I went off the fact that it's mentioned at Help:Citation Style 1#Pages. Bald Boris 02:37, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Never mind--doublechecking the specific statements the documentary supports, there's nothing controversial that would need a reliable source per criterion 2b anyway. -- Khazar2 (talk) 15:12, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

No problems with stability.

Let me know your thoughts on the above; I'll get into a nitty-gritty source check later tonight or tomorrow. And thanks again for your work on this; he's been an interesting figure to learn about. -- Khazar2 (talk) 21:28, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

What's the rules on reference number order? I've looked before but never found any info on it. An editor done it here in September, but i reverted it because I was unsure about it. I have ordered them as they cite in the text (I hope that makes sense). Bald Boris 02:37, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Hm. I've been told before that they're supposed to appear in numerical order, but I can't immediately confirm that myself from the MOS. I'll leave any further examples unchanged, and feel free to revert those I have changed if you prefer the other approach. Sorry about that. -- Khazar2 (talk) 11:05, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Sidwells|2000|pp=130–125 -- page order is backwards or a typo is involved. -- Khazar2 (talk) 11:05, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Done Bald Boris 12:27, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

All right, spotchecks of sources show no cause for concern on the copyright front.

Conclusion: Pass. There's a few sources that may be questionable for reliability, such as blog.saint.org, Barry Boyce of Cycling Revealed, or the documentary cited a few times, but these are sparsely used and appear to only support statements that don't need inline citation anyway per criterion 2b. This article is admirably comprehensive and complete--thanks for all of your great research and writing on this one. -- Khazar2 (talk) 15:20, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Appreciate all of your help. The blog.saint.org is the only "decent" site that I could use to cite, I actually deleted the text some time ago because of it, but restored it as it's fairly worthy. I dropped the Boyce refs and may drop the docs if I can cite it elsewhere. Thanks again. Bald Boris 00:46, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

My pleasure! If you do intend to continue on to FA, I'd suggest getting an opinion on those sources at WP:RS/N first if they remain in the article. Good luck, Khazar2 (talk) 00:55, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Autobiography

I've added a mention of David Millar's introduction to the reissue of Simpson's autobiography, published in 2009. Should we mention the original publication in 1966 somewhere in the article though? It seems worthy of mention to me. Cordless Larry (talk) 12:51, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Good idea, I've added to the personal life section. Bald Boris 22:24, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, BaldBoris. Cordless Larry (talk) 06:59, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

"fearful" descender

During the FAC, Brianboulton commented on the leading sentence in the Riding style and legacy section with A "fearful" descender? It sounds from the description as though he was fearless. My response was that it was printed as that in the book. I reverted an IP edit since, which changed it to fearless. I'm slightly concerned about this as it looks to be going on the main page in a few weeks. I've actually thought about contacting the author to get confirmation. What shall I do? Bald Boris 16:03, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

You could leave a hidden note in the edit text explaining that "fearful" is the word used in the source. In my view it's poor wording by the author – "fearless" or "fearsome" would be far better. Brianboulton (talk) 20:43, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

@Brianboulton: The thing is, the author (William Fotheringham) is quoting someone else. Your suggestion solves the problem of it being corrected, but not the real problem. I just feel it's confusing to the reader. Is there a some way of rewording it without the quote? Here's the source [1]. Bald Boris 21:21, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Just paraphrase "fearful descender" as "fearsome in descent" without the quotes. It's pretty obvious that's what the source intended. Brianboulton (talk) 21:46, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Temperature in the race

"The temperature reportedly reached as high as 54 °C (129 °F) during the stage."

How is this possible, when the highest recorded temperature in history in France is 44.1°C? https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/List_of_weather_records — Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.138.123.23 (talk • contribs) 08:26, 29 June 2016‎ (UTC)

Nevertheless, the Telegraph newspaper reporting on Simpson's death in 1967 stated that the temperature that day was 54C. The book Faster, Higher, Stronger states the temperature was over 100[F] that day. The Cycling Bible says the temperature when Simpson died on Mont Ventoux was 49C. From looking at "List of weather records", it is a List of official record temperatures. I would assume that the temperatures taken on Mont Ventoux that day were not taken with perfectly calibrated instruments, but rather temperature gauges owned by the public at large. So that is how it is possible. Shearonink (talk) 07:27, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

The first of those sources refers to the temperature "on the road" and the third to the "surface temperature", which I imagine were significantly higher than the air temperature, which is what the highest recorded temperature would refer to. Cordless Larry (talk) 07:42, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

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