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Archive 1Archive 2

Scott said he could only trust Evans, Lashly, and Crean?

What is the source of the assertion that Scott said he could only trust Evans, Lashly, and Crean? The original account of Crean's solo trip in this article was factually garbled so I am kind of distrustful of this other statement as well. Dr.frog 12:53, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

  • I've read a number of books on this subject and haven't come across a statement this strong from Scott. There is no doubt though that Scott held these men in very high regard so I modified the statement as such and included a citation from Scott's diary. Zatoichi26 (talk) 03:09, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

GA approval

I have now passed the article GA, so congratulations after all your hard work. I am writing a formal report for the archive, and will let you know where this is when I've done it.

The only late changes I've made are in the lead, where I've extended or combined sentences, adopted British spellings and styles, re-routed the open boat journey (you had it going through Drake's Passage) and other bits of tweaking. I think it's OK now.

You probably need a break, but when you feel ready for a new challenge, if you want another Antarctic project and haven't one in mind, take a look at the list on my userpage This is a summary of projects that I may, or may not, get round to. You are very welcome to pick one of these, and I'd be willing to assist. Don't pick Ernest Joyce, though, as I'm doing some work on that at present.

Also, for your interest, the two big projects, Captain Scott and Imperial Trans-Antarctic Expedition, will be at FAC and peer review respectively, in the next day or two. Brianboulton (talk) 12:55, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

The review discussion and report is on Talk:Tom Crean/GA1 if you want to read it Brianboulton (talk) 13:19, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

  • Thanks Brian, congratulations to you too for a very thorough GA review. The article is vastly improved over the original. I may take a break from Wikipedia for a bit, as you suggested, but I'll look into the articles you've suggested later. Zatoichi26 (talk) 21:51, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Images

As part of the freshening-up process in readiness for an eventual run at FAC, I've played around with the images a bit. I've added a pic of the training ship HMS Impregnable, changed the Hut Point interior shot for an external one (I'm tired of looking at that fossilized pair of trousers), and changed the James Caird launching for a general shot of the Endurance party. I've also shifted the mugshot in the Terra Nova section over to the left, for variety's sake. These changes are by way of experiment - we can always revert to the former images, if preferred.

My personal view would be to transfer the aforementioned mugshot into the lead (replacing the one with the puppies), and to find an image, or images, more related to the Terra Nova Expedition, to put in that section. I'm on the lookout. Also, there may be a problem in keeping the statue image at the end. Apparently there are separate copyright questions arising from photographs of "recent" works of art (where the sculptor may be still alive, or only have died recently). I've had this problem on FACs before. I will at some stage do a careful check on every image within the article - on my own FACs I've had more problems with images than I have with prose. Brianboulton (talk) 16:08, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

(later) I have now added to the Terra Nova section a photo (taken by Bowers) of the polar party at 87°S. Crean is among the unidentified figures. The photo looks better when enlarged. It is definitely PD, too. Brianboulton (talk) 21:19, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
Hi Brian: I am torn between the mugshot and the puppies photo for the lead. The puppies one is a great photo, with lots of personality. I found the mugshot on the internet somewhere, it's pretty grainy. It's reprinted in the Michael Smith book I have. I'll scan it at high resolution and re-upload it. It would be a shame to lose the statue photo, it rounds out the article quite well. Zatoichi26 (talk) 01:26, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
I moved the mug shot to the Endurance section since this is from that period, and added the photo of Crean & "Bones". Also have a look at Crean & Cheetham.JPG on Wikipedia Commons, I uploaded that one as well but haven't decided if it will fit, or is needed. Zatoichi26 (talk) 01:47, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
Re Bones and Crean image: What is the source of this picture? When was it first published? Do we have author information? We can't claim it was published before 1923 if we don't have its initial publication details. Nor can we claim copyright expiry on the basis of author's life + 70 years if we don't know who the author is. I can't find the image in my 1913 edition of Scott's Last Expedition. Brianboulton (talk) 15:12, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

It was from my Michael Smith book. The book credits SPRI and I just located it on their web site at http://www.spri.cam.ac.uk/library/pictures/expeditions/terranova/9.html. I was assuming since it was taken sometime in 1910-13, surely it would have been published before 1923, but I don't have that documented anywhere. Let me know if you have further ideas, otherwise I suppose I'll remove it. Zatoichi26 (talk) 00:54, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

I suggest we leave the images as they are for the moment, get the prose right, and then consider what to do. I'll keep my eyes open for publication details of the "Bones" photo - a possibility is Herbert Ponting's With Scott to the Pole. Brianboulton (talk) 21:10, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Comparison with Ernest Shackleton Featured Article

Lead photo:

Lead section:

  • comparable in detail, Shackleton's is a little longer
  • Shackleton's stays appropriately higher level; Crean's mentions some details such as his rank of "boy 2nd class" and "able seaman" which are perhaps unnecessary in lead section Green tickY Zatoichi26 (talk) 01:08, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
  • reference of when and to whom Crean was married to, could be added in lead as a significant life event. Green tickY Mentioned briefly Zatoichi26 (talk) 01:19, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
  • should make reference to Crean's three polar medals in the lead Green tickY Zatoichi26 (talk) 01:19, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
  • little more detail (one-liner) on Endurance expedition can be added, for instance, instead of the ship just sinking, the men were actually stranded in the ship all winter, and when it sunk they were stranded on the ice for almost 5 months. There are not many human beings who have been through an ordeal like this so it should be highlighted. Green tickY Zatoichi26 (talk) 01:39, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Early life sections:

  • comparable in types of details
  • Crean's reads a little mechanically - should be rounded out with more details if they exist - will check Michael Smith book.

Subsequent sections:

  • both articles structured the same with separate sections for expeditions and "time between expeditions"
  • Shackleton's is longer with more sections; due to Shackleton's greater number of expeditions, and likely due to more historical reference material on Shackleton than Crean
  • both have legacy/tributes section

Tone:

  • articles have similar encyclopedic tone

Photos:

  • Crean has been improved with more photos. Better quality mugshot will be uploaded.
  • What about the James Caird launch photo? This could be copied onto the Crean site since Crean is surely in this photo.

Citations:

  • not counting web citations, Shackleton has 28 different sources, Crean has 7. At least one or two more should be found for Crean.
  • citation quality (format etc) is comparable

I'll address some of these when I get more time. Zatoichi26 (talk) 02:26, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Be a bit careful at the moment in using the Shackleton article as any sort of guide or comparator. Its promotion to FA in January was in my view a HUGE mistake - it was riddled with errors, and the choice, range and use made of sources was often bizarre. I have been engaged, on and off, for months in surreptious rewrites, and am by no means finished with it yet. In my view, at present Crean is the better article. I'd say tht either Harry McNish or Ernest Joyce might be better models. Brianboulton (talk) 23:55, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Brian: OK, I will take a look at those articles. I did make some of the above changes because I think they improve the article regardless of the status of Ernest Shackleton. Zatoichi26 (talk) 01:41, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
I had a look through the Harry McNish article, and didn't see any improvements/ideas to be transferred to the Tom Crean article, that aren't already listed above. Zatoichi26 (talk) 01:47, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Prose comments

The lead looks excellent now, after your redrafts. I've added a couple of tweaks myself.

In the Early life and career section I see that all the information in the first paragraph is cited to p. 19 of Smith's book. I don't have the book beside me for the moment, but is all of this really on the one page? Even so, given the variety of the information provided, I think there should be separate citations at the end of second and third sentences.

Also, in the British Navy, Ordinary Seaman is the lowest rating - you can't be "promoted" to it. It would have been automatic, once Crean ceased to be a boy seaman. I suggest something like: "On his 18th birthday Crean was ranked Ordinary Seaman..." And I would delete altogether the final sentence of the section, which doesn't really tell us anything significant. Brianboulton (talk) 21:03, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

I added citations for first two sentences and made the changes you suggested. Zatoichi26 (talk) 01:29, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
OK, and I've tweaked it about a bit more. Looking at later sections now. Brianboulton (talk) 18:49, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Analysis of Lead Section Against Guidelines

Does lead section unambiguously define topic?

Yes.

Article begins with a straightforward, declarative sentence and article title is subject of first sentence?

Yes.

First instance of title is in boldface?

Yes.

Relative emphasis: Is information in the lead reflected in the rest of the text?

Yes, lead section provides synopsis of Crean's origins, expeditions, accolades, retirement, death.

Accessible overview: Does lead briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article?

Yes, see previous point.

Accessible overview: Is specialized terminology avoided?

I think it's OK. Geographic places unfamiliar to some such as "Ross Ice Shelf" and "County Kerry" are wiki-linked.

Lead properly cited?

Guidelines state "The necessity for citations in a lead should be determined on a case-by-case basis by editorial consensus." All of the information in the Lead is cited later in the article, and there is nothing controversial here. For ease of reading, recommend leaving out citations from Lead.

Proper length?

3 paragraphs is within Wikipedia guidelines (no more than 4 paragraphs in lead). Zatoichi26 (talk) 00:57, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Review Against Wikipedia:Manual of Style

  • The MOS recommends against using the title in a section heading, as we have here for "Tributes to Tom Crean". I am considering changing it to just "Tributes". Brian do you have any thoughts on that or other ideas?
    • Well, yes. Three of the four "tributes" are what might come under the heading of "trivia", and I would strongly advise against ending the article on what appears to be a "trivial" note. My advice would be to ditch this section, incorporate the geographical namings into the previous section and forget the rest. If you feel strongly about the documentary and the stage show, a brief sentence along the lines of "Crean has also been the subject of recent television documentaries and theatre productions" would be OK, but I'd definitely leave out the pale ale. Brianboulton (talk) 11:03, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
      • Agreed about the Tributes section, it mainly contained unimportant information and caused the whole article to end on a weak note. Surely the man's legacy is not a beer and a one-man play! This would be like ending the Albert Einstein article by saying that his face is used on coffee mugs and posters. (maybe it does, I haven't checked...) Anyway I deleted it, moving the note about geographical features named for Crean, to "Later Life". Zatoichi26 (talk) 01:54, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
  • Under "Seasons as dates" the MOS recommends against using winter/spring/summer etc. I was going to change the first instance of "winter" in "During the first winter the Discovery" to "During the first Antarctic winter" but then Antarctic is used again in the same sentence... and then there's the matter of "winter quarters" and what to do with that. In the end I think the article is fine as is, since it is clear we are talking about the Antarctic pretty much throughout.
  • The above two points were the only variants I found from the MOS; the article is pretty solid.
  • Left to do: review against Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies). Zatoichi26 (talk) 02:35, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Terra Nova Expedition - Last Support Party

I've been reading other accounts of the Last Supporting Party's return journey in Jan-Feb 1912. I don't think Evans's own account is reliable. There was a lot of trouble descending the Beardmore, due to Evans's poor navigation (he was suffering from snow-blindness), and the later efforts of Lashly and Crean to save his life deserve better than Evans's somewhat sentimental account, with Crean weeping etc. David Crane's recent Scott biog is an excellent summary. I realise that this doesn't help you if you don't have a copy; would you object if I prepared a short paraphrase for insertion in the article? You would be welcome to amend it for consistency of style, or chuck it altogether if you don't like it. Incidentally, I got rid of the redlink on Mount Crean by writing a brief article. Brianboulton (talk) 23:18, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Go ahead, sounds like it would be an improvement. Nice work creating Mount Crean. Zatoichi26 (talk) 02:06, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Further amendments

I see you've been busy. The article is looking in increasingly good shape. I have done a bit more work on the Tera Nove section:-

  • I've moved the para about the composition of the polar party (should Crean have been in it, etc) to its proper place in the chronology, which is before the long paragraph dealing with the last supporting party.
  • I've also changed some of its wording and added a bit. I thought that Smith's opinion needed backing up, so I found another reference to the issue of Crean's inclusion rather than Evans's, and I've included that and cited it.
  • I've slightly changed the paragraph dealing with the finding of the tent. I've read through several accounts, including Atkinson's first-hand report, and can't find any reference to a black flag sticking out, so I've altered that description.

On a separate issue, I think there are too many external links. Up to you, but I would choose the two or three best. The ones that you keep should probably be put into cite web format.

It is fast approaching the time when the article should go to peer review. Do you have any thoughts about when that might be? Brianboulton (talk) 21:25, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

By the way, I shall be away for most of the next week and only intermittently in touch with WP. Brianboulton (talk) 21:52, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
Brian, I re-wrote the "mountainous gales" sentence, can you add your citation from Worsley's account? Also I cleaned up the external links. I'm not sure what the correct formatting is, but I made them look the same as today's featured article, the Cleveland Street scandal. If there's a better format can you correct, or point me to an article which is a better example? One that's done, I think we just need to verify images have proper copyright, then I think the article is ready for peer review. Zatoichi26 (talk) 02:30, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Done the Worsley thing. I usually ask for the image issues to be sorted out during, rather than before, the peer review. If I were you, as soon as you've finished buffing and polishing, I'd send it to PR. In your review request say you would like a review of everything - prose, images and sources. Then wait and see - sometimes it takes a while, but you'll get some good feedback. I'll keep in touch as & when I can till about 18th. Brianboulton (talk) 00:55, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
PS can you cite last sentence of Discovery Expedition section, re Scott recommending Crean's promotion? Brianboulton (talk) 09:05, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
Citation has been added, and peer review requested. Zatoichi26 (talk) 01:22, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
Good! PS watch out for vandals. Brianboulton (talk) 14:43, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

FAC points outstanding 10 November

*I will do a run-through in search of the alleged "passive voices". Sometimes they are there, but elusive.

  • Yomangani's point about Crean suffering from snow-blindness on the last support journey return. Worth putting in?
I thought it worth mentioning it as it shows Crean's recovery in contrast to Evan's decline and enhances Crean's later effort (you could argue Lashly was the fitter man for the solo trek). Yomanganitalk 11:30, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

*A new reviewer is querying the statement that Crean probably lied about his age to get in the Navy. Can you deal with this point? *Another has suggested we reintroduce the information about the Guinness advert and the play. I'm against this, what do you say? Brianboulton (talk) 00:56, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

    • (Later) On the last point, above, I've been thinking. Although the Guinness ad is trivial, the play may be worth mentioning, as it was performed at the South Pole Inn in in the presence of Crean's octagenarian daughters, who had things to say about it. How about something like this:

A one-man play about Crean's life, devised by Adrian Dooley, has been widely performed since 2001, including a special showing at the South Pole Inn, Annascaul, in October 2001. Present were Crean's daughters, Eileen and Kate, both in their 80s. Apparently he never told them his stories; according to Eileen: "He put his medals and his sword in a box [...] and that was that. He was a very humble man".[1]

References

  1. ^ Maeve Kennedy. "Irish village hears tales of its forgotten polar hero". www.guardian.co.uk. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |accessdaymonth= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |accessyear= ignored (|access-date= suggested) (help)

I think the article could take that without accusation of trivialisation. Brianboulton (talk) 17:28, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

(Later): As a reviewer is supporting on the condition that the play gets a mention, I have added the above to the text. I maintain my aversion to the ad, though. Brianboulton (talk) 00:01, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

My changes

I've made a few slight tweaks, as I understand it, in the Royal Navy, junior personnel are said to ahve a rate, not a rank. I've also found the official notification of the Polar Medal for the Terra Nova expedition, and his Albert Medal in the London Gazette and added these as references, also in the footnote, I've tried to explain a bit more of the significance of the Albert Medal, since it's not that well known. Apparently, from 1918, hodlers of the Albert Medal were allowed to use the postnominals AM, so this could be incldued after his name in the lede, though given the sensitivities of later Anglo-Irish relations, it may be that he didn't use them, sot hat might be considered anachronous. The notification relating to the Polar Medal also states taht he was awarded only the Silver Clasp on this occasion, as he had already received the Silver Polar Medal, perhaps we need to reconsider how we word this? The other awards of the Polar Medal should also be in the Gazette, but are proving slightly harder to track down, the indexing of the scans can sometimes be a bit hit and miss. David Underdown (talk) 18:44, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

That portion of his service record which is a available online also refers only to him receiving a further clasp to the Poalr Medal in 1917. It seems to me that it would be more accurate to state that he received the Polar Medal with three clasps, rather than saying he received 3 Polar Medals. David Underdown (talk) 10:02, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
Thanks David, for those additional details. I don't think we need to add "AM" after Crean's name anywhere, since it is a pretty obscure award (maybe it's more well known in GB?). The book that I originally referenced the Albert Medal award from, did not mention the distinction between silver polar medal, or a clasp, but if you have those details in a book somewhere, feel free to add them with citations. Zatoichi26 (talk) 18:02, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
The Albert Medal probably isn't particularly well known anywhere, due it's supersession by the George Cross. If I could find the other Gazettes with the Polar Medal clasps in, I'd change it, bu they're proving particularly elusive. David Underdown (talk) 09:46, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Which Daughter died in childhood?

The article states that Kate died in childhood, but Kate is later mentioned in her eighties! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.70.131.45 (talk) 13:59, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Well spotted. Kate died. Yomanganitalk 14:35, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Use of United Kingdom in birthplace entry in infobox

While this article was the main page featured article on 17 March 2010, a number of editors removed the mention of [[United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland|United Kingdom]] (notice piping) from the birthplace field of the article infobox. Crean was undeniably Irish) but at the time of his birth Ireland was part of the UK. The entry for his place of death correctly reflects the fact that by the time of his death) there was an independent Ireland. At the start of the day this was expressed as [[Republic of Ireland|Ireland]]) by the end of the day I had removed the piping in an attempt to make the linking clearer (and on the understanding that this was a permitted exception under WP:IMOS) since in the birthplace we link to Ireland as the article on the island as a whole). Prominent among those removing mention of the UK was User:130.83.46.39. I created User talk:130.83.46.39#Tom Crean) and it is as a result of our discussion there that I am raising this RFC. This anonymous user feels that mentioning the UK gives the unwarranted impression that the place is still under British rule. My understanding is that in general we list people under the relevant country at the time they were born) and in this particular case) teh link to Republic of Ireland for his deathplace makes the changed circumstances during his lifetime pretty clear.

I cannot find anything in the Manual of Style that directly touches on this) the closest I can find is WP:MOSICON#Biographical usage which contains: "If someone's citizenship has legally changed because of shifting political borders, use the historically correct country designation, not a later one, and perhaps mention in the article prose the new country name, e.g. 'Belgrade, Yugoslavia (today in Serbia)'" and similar strctures in the "Historical considerations" section of that part of the manual of Style. WP:MILMOS#Flag icons also mentions avoiding anachronistic usage. David Underdown (talk) 17:04, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Delete infobox, solve problem. Yomanganitalk 17:19, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
A rugged-featured man in a turtleneck jersey, pipe in mouth, is seated holding four small puppies, each mainly light-coloured with dark markings
Tom Crean with sled dog puppies, February 7, 1915
I see that my suggestion has been described elsewhere as "disappointingly facile". I must assume facile is used there in the sense of easy or effortless (though why that would that be considered disappointing I don't know). Despite what the fans of Wikipedia's attempts to produce a rival to Top Trumps would have you believe, infoboxes are by no means mandatory. What useful purpose does one serve here? If it is to service those with too short an attention span to read the article I doubt the nuances of political map drawing will...[sorry, drifted off], if it is to aid automated systems then it is with sadness that I must break the news that we are some way off a machine that can parse the intricacies of Irish history, if it is purely decorative then let's have a detail of those cute puppies instead. A photo with a caption would serve the article better than this attempt to shoehorn Crean into a box that is only loosely relevant and fraught with problems. Yomanganitalk 17:02, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
  • I would suggest that UK is over-emphasised in infobox. It is clear from the article that he was Irish. His place of birth could be given as "then part of UK". He served in the British Navy, and then retired to the Irish Free State. Conversely does his place of death need to be "Republic of Ireland" rather than "Ireland"? Peterkingiron (talk) 16:10, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
    Place of death is (now) given as Republic of Ireland. I had rather forgotten this was still running. Having thought of suggesting to the original IP that he should look at George Washington, he seemed happier with how this article has its infobox set up. David Underdown (talk) 16:15, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
"Republic of Ireland" is a misnomer. You could say that he died in Ireland or in the Irish free State. The term "Republic of Ireland" came around 1948. see Names of the Irish state ClemMcGann (talk) 13:27, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
Damn, sorry, I had tried to get it right. I had noted that Irish Free State ceased to be used in 1937, but failed to pick up that Dominion status technically remained until 1948. In this case, perhaps Eire would be best (this seems to be supported by Names of the Irish state, to maintain a visible distinction from Ireland in birthplace, referring to All-Ireland, and Ireland in deathplace, referring to the mdoern state? David Underdown (talk) 13:47, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
Be careful of the use of eire, for example see: User:Ww2censor#Two Irish history writing Pet peeves. I would avoid the politics and say Ireland (as in the island) ClemMcGann (talk) 17:09, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
That seems to say taht it's OK if you actually use the diacritic - mind you it does contradict what's in the Name of the Irish state article which says Eire was in common use in English (including in Ireland) at the relevant time. The point is we use simply Ireland for his birthplace, an UK, which is correct, and there really needs to be some way of pointing out that by his death the situation had changed, and the Ireland we're talking about is no longer the same entity that we've linked to in the birthplace. David Underdown (talk) 18:03, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
Crean was a British seaman (just as his brother, a sergeant in the Royal Irish Constabulary assassinated by the IRA, was a British policeman) because he [Tom Crean] served in the British Navy under the British government; Irish volunteers during WWI were British soldiers, not Irish soldiers, as that was the government under which they served. Quis separabit? 13:31, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
The career facts are true, but that doesn't mean that he would have identified as British, rather than Irish, and indeed, the fact he returned to Kerry to live in an independent Ireland suggests he regarded himself as Irish. Culloty82 (talk) 20:12, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
Reverted to comply with WP:IMOS. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 15:48, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

Statute and nautical miles

The article uses statute and nautical 'miles'. Based on the text, I've tried to resolve the ambiguity by specifying which one in each case. Please feel free to check each one and see if it's correct. Lightmouse (talk) 13:37, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Ardada expedition?

I am working these days on the translation of this article to Hebrew, and I was quite surprised to see there this strange name for the Terra Nova Expedition. Where has it come from? שלומית קדם (talk) 17:06, 7 April 2013 (UTC)


Incorrect date of birth ?

Many web sources - incl Irish Wikipedia - say "Tom Crean was born in Gortacurraun, Annascaul Co. Kerry on the 20 July 1877", not in February. Why the difference ? TGcoa (talk) 23:14, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Categories

I've restored the situation where Crean is in both "British explorers" and "Irish explorers". This seems best to me, but I invite discussion.

"Irish explorers" is sensible because Crean was an explorer from Ireland (and as discussed above appears to have identified as Irish). "British explorers" is also sensible because Crean was a British subject and the voyages of exploration he went on were organised by the UK.

There's no rule against having both categories provided they appear to be accurate, and no reason why someone looking in either category would not be helped by finding Crean. Pinkbeast (talk) 16:17, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

Infobox

The Irish Manual of Style is clear and unambiguous on places of birth and death: "For people anywhere else in Ireland at any time, "Ireland" should be used." (By "anywhere else", they mean "outside Northern Ireland"). BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 16:25, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

There seems to be some reluctance to accept this; but the fact that one doesn't link UK, even when Ireland was part of UK at the time referenced, seems to be the whole point of the MOS guideline. I can see no reason for an exception in this case. William Avery (talk) 19:12, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
I think the whole point is what it actually says; use "Ireland". I have used "Ireland", reverting the version that does not use "Ireland". It does not say not to use anything else and the idea that we should not actually list the country in which Crean was born seems remarkable and does not, as far as I can see, appear in IMOS. Pinkbeast (talk) 23:15, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
Its not in the least bit remarkable, and just stating 'Ireland' is the usual thing. See the featured articles:
And articles on such notables as:
Though for an exception:
William Avery (talk) 09:34, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
Fair point that it's not unusual, although I can't say I'm entirely surprised given the frequency of driveby edits here (and elsewhere) by people who appear to be either deeply upset with the fact that Ireland used to be in the UK or confused between the present and historical state of affairs. I do still think it's remarkable, though - ordinarily in the infobox we list the country in which the subject was born, a practice I think you'll find is universal where there isn't some bleeding nationalist ulcer, and plainly the country in which Crean was born was the UK.
However, back to IMOS; it says "use Ireland", and that's all it says. Presently we have used "Ireland". Pinkbeast (talk) 17:40, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
So there's no issue, then. The correct version, per IMOS, has been stable for months. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 17:56, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
Either version which says "Ireland" abides by IMOS but only a version that lists his country of birth as the UK is correct, because that is the country in which he was born. You have just reverted an indisputably true fact out of the article; this is pretty sharp practice. Pinkbeast (talk) 22:59, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
On the contrary: using Ireland, solely, is exactly what is mandated by IMOS. If you have a problem with it, perhaps take it up there. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 00:10, 21 December 2017 (UTC)
IMOS does not mandate that; try reading it, which may help. If it did I wouldn't argue the point there, since there is an endless supply of Americans who suppose mistakenly they are Irish ready to mess this sort of thing up. Pinkbeast (talk) 01:00, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
Right backatcha. "The place of birth, residence and/or death of people who were born, lived or died before 1921 in what today is Northern Ireland should be given simply as "Ireland"... For people anywhere else in Ireland at any time, "Ireland" should be used." BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 11:44, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
To my (English) mind, unless one insists on linking to the union at articles such as Robert Falcon Scott, Charles Dickens, Charles Darwin, or Thomas Hardy, one risks looking like some sort of cultural imperialist. William Avery (talk) 11:07, 21 December 2017 (UTC)
I think it would be excellent also to link to the country in which they were born, but also, life's too short. Bow to this nationalist idiocy if you like. Pinkbeast (talk) 01:00, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
If I'm being called both a nationalist idiot and a West Brit by different editors, then quite possibly I'm doing this right... BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 11:44, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

Changes to the Tom Crean Wikipedia entry

I've recently written a book about Tom Crean and have come across a number of mistakes, missing information and dead or irrelevant links on this page but I have a dilemma - as the writer of the book any alterations I could make, which I can verify by my source references, could also be viewed as a conflict of interests given that I'd be listing my own book as the source. I would really like to hear the advice of editors who understand the dilemma with a means of implementing changes to this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Timfoley50 (talk • contribs) 15:58, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

Hi Timfoley50. Please advise (here, on this talk page) what errors you feel exist in the article, what changes you propose to make, and what sources you are basing those changes/improvements upon. Ideally not your own book (which presumably was, in turn, based on other/independent sources). If you want to set out your proposed changes here, they can be discussed (collaboratively and via consensus), and that way reducing the risk of WP:COI or WP:VER issues. Thanks. Guliolopez (talk) 11:31, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

Guliolopez, I'm happy to provide source references I've used and listed in my book, to provide evidence that Crean, albeit under a different first name, was baptised on 16th February 1877 and that he had 10 siblings and was not one of 10. Boys in the period could enter the Navy from 15 years old and they had to have parental consent - source:(http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/NL_1885/Entry.html#Boys) The article makes reference to Crean's service on HMS Royal Arthur in 1895 but no reference to the Corinto incident (https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Nicaragua_Crisis_of_1895) of which HMS Royal Arthur was the flagship that headed up two other ships, HMS Satellite and HMS Wild Swan in a blockade of the port before collecting an indemnity - Crean wsa serving aboard at this time and was very likely to have been one of the force of 400 men who occupied the port. Note reference 34 refers to Crean's letter to 'unknown person' This letter was written to Lieutenant J P Kennedy, also born in Annascaul and who was a close friend and mentor of Tom Crean. Before joining Shackleton's expedition in 1914, there is no mention of Foster Stackhouse's British Antarctic Expedition proposed for the same year and one in which there is evidence that he was seeking the services of Tom Crean.

Crean's Naval records state that he was promoted to an Acting Boatswain on 27th December 1916 and that he was confirmed in the role of Boatswain (Warrant Officer) on 2nd January 1918 which conflicts with the information given in the Wiki page. The note section reference attached to this info does provide a link to the correct date. Crean was granted a licence to sell beer. wines and spirits at his dwelling house in April 1917 after making an application in March 1917 before his marriage on 5th September 1917. It was named the South Pole Inn after being refurbished to a two storey building in 1929.

From November 1918 to March 1919 Crean's naval appointments saw him serve on HMS Inflexible which was present at the surrender of the German High Seas fleet at Scapa Flow in November 1918. Crean joined the ship on November 14th, three days after the end of the war. From March 1919 to October 1919, Crean served on HMS Fox as part of the North Russian Expeditionary force sent to halt the advance of the Bolshevik forces. It's possible Shackleton recommended his services but there is no evidence of this although he had recommended other former Polar colleagues for service to the expedition. Crean was retired due to 'Retinitis'(stated on his naval record) on March 24th 1920 after being admitted to Chatham on 24th February with defective vision.

I also don't happen to believe that Crean kept a low profile after his retirement because of his association with the British Royal Navy and matters of opinion and speculation aren't evidence of this. He was a man who guarded his privacy yet he was an active and popular member of his community as can be confirmed by the many accounts of those who knew him.

The legacy section overlooks a campaign for Ireland to honour Tom Crean that I've operated since 2010 and which has generated almost 27,000 supporters and a petition signed by 10,000 people to have a ship named in Crean's honour. I believe that it warrants mention as will my book which is only recently published but contains all identifiable sources in the reference section. The legacy section could have additions such as Crean Deep, an underwater deep sea trench off the coast of New Zealand source: https://schmidtocean.org/discovering-and-naming-crean-deep/ named by Leighton Crolley. The naming of Tom Crean as a tail-fin hero of Norwegian Airlines - source: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/tom-crean-explores-new-heights-on-norwegian-air-tailfin-1.3156966.

There are dead links also in the notes section - numbers 5, 72 and 74.

I accept this is all recently sourced information I discovered when in the process of writing and researching my own book but it does render a look at alterations here where sources can provide evidence. I am also happy to provide my own research material as the qualified sources for all the changes I am proposing here in order to improve the page - perhaps a shareable link? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Timfoley50 (talk • contribs) 16:36, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

Hi. On each point:
  • Number of siblings - I would recommend adding your source and noting the difference from other sources ("One of ten or eleven siblings,[yourref][existingref] he attended the local Catholic school...")
  • Consent - I am not sure what point you are making here. That link is unrelated to Crean. And states simply that, technically, consent was required if he was under-age. Do you have something concrete that refutes the claims (made in Smith's 2003 and 2010 books, and repeated in Dooley's 2016 text and others) that Crean misrepresented his age to circumvent this rule? (Rules are sometimes broken. That a rule existed in not evidence that the rule was not broken. "I couldn't have been going 130km your honour, because the rules don't allow it - case closed").
  • Corinto - Please provide a reference that Crean was "very likely to have been one of the force of 400 men who occupied the port".
  • Letter recipient not unknown - As above, please provide a ref (if the recipient is not mentioned in Smith, perhaps it is mentioned elsewhere)
  • Promotion - I would recommend changing from "On 15 December 1916 he was promoted..." to "In December 1916 he was promoted...". This addresses the issue. The day of the week is likely not entirely relevant (certainly if questionable).
  • Additional dates/service - Please provide refs.
  • Low-profile - If you have references which contradict Smith's assertions, please provide them.
  • Legacy - Once the other issues are addressed, I am happy to find a measured and non-COI way to include these. Towards the end. In a light touch manner.
Cheers. Guliolopez (talk) 14:00, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

Hi Guliolopez, thanks for coming back on the points I raised. To answer your points in order:

My source for the number of siblings can be found in the official Irish Birth and Baptism records as can Crean's birth date of 16th February and I'm happy to provide my own copies of these in a shareable link as mentioned in my previous sign off comment.

The consent question - my point is that Crean was 16 years old when he joined the Navy. If one were to calculate that from the birthdate given on the Wikipedia page (25th February 1877) which I can confirm as being incorrect, then him joining the Navy on 10th July 1893, confirms he was 16 not 15, so making any reference to him being 15 in the article is a contradiction of this. I do also happen to have evidenceof Crean being 16 years old and again I'm happy to share this with you.

Corinto - My statement is based on the fact that he was an 18-year-old ordinary seaman serving aboard Royal Arthur at the time of the blockade and 'very likely' given that we know 80% of the marines aboard occupied the port. (400 out of a ship's complement of 450) I accept this isn't definitive hence my 'very likely' comment. There is no way of determining his presence among the landing force but despite this, I believe the incident deserves mention given its importance in Crean's early career. I do happen to believe that Crean was present but that's immaterial unless proven and that would take further investigation at the Naval archives. I may come back on that point sometime in the future should I unearth evidence of this.

Letter recipient - Yes I have evidence and can share this with you.

Additional dates/service - yes and can provide this.

Promotion - You appear to have misunderstood my recommendation and I wasn't in any way wishing to appear pedantic by suggesting the day of the month be altered. Crean was indeed promoted to Acting Boatswain in December 1916 but he wasn't confirmed as a Boatswain (Warrant Officer) until January 1918. Again, I have evidence and can provide this

Low profile - I made no reference to anyone's assertions when making this point but I happen to believe different to what is stated in the article and my findings are such that Crean didn't keep a low profile because of anything other than it being an intrinsic part of his character. He was an unassuming man who preferred to remain in the background. The area Crean was born and returned to was a hotbed of Irish Nationalism and later Irish republicanism as the article states but there's no evidence that Crean keeping a low profile had any connection to the political leanings of the time. If he was intent on keeping a low profile because of his former career in the Navy, why would he make an open statement of his former life when building the public house and naming it the South Pole Inn? It's just a matter of different opinions and each has validity. I believe this section can be written in a better and more balanced way to reflect that.

Legacy - Thank you Guliolopez

Please let me know how best to provide the evidence - can this be achieved by a shareable link? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Timfoley50 (talk • contribs) 23:52, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

@Timfoley50: My opinion:You are doing the right things: declaring your COI and making suggestions on the talk page rather than editing yourself. However, This is such a large amount of material that you will need to subdivide it into manageable, specific edit suggestions, perhaps one per new section here on the talk page. If your book is itself a "reliable source" (i.e., published by a mainstream publisher, not a vanity press) then just go ahead and use it as the suggested reference. Otherwise, (or in addition) provide your references. It is acceptable to use primary sources for facts, not inferences, if no secondary source is available, but let another editor make the final decision in each case. And thanks for taking the time and effort to do this. -Arch dude (talk) 00:49, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

Arch dude, thanks and I'm happy to put the changes into the hands of an editor.

Request edit

Below are my suggestions and are based on my research for the book.

Section: Early Life and Career

Registered as Joanna Crean born to parents Pat and Catherine Crean at Gortacurraun on February 16th 1877 - This baptism with a name error points to that of Tom Crean whose birth certificate was registered 9 days later on 25th February 1877. The reason for the name error could possibly be to the Parish priest writing up the register later and although not conclusive, the fact remains that this child was born to the parents of Tom Crean at the family’s townland of Gortacurraun. Other potential explanations such as the possibility of Tom Crean being a twin, can be discounted as his name would have also appeared on the baptism and the return of the census would have registered 12 children, not 11 as appeared in the 1911 census - see notes below. Source to baptism https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634231#page/169/mode/1up Source to Crean's birth certificate https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1877/03016/2105300.pdf

Creans service record details his birthdate as being 20th July 1877, it’s an anomaly that exists in a number of Naval records yet the reasons aren’t clear. What is certain, given the above details on his true birthdate, is that Crean was 16 years and almost 5 months old when he joined. He confirms this himself when speaking in a court case in 1930. Source: The Kerry Champion 1st November 1930 here is the snippet from that publication - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HWGBdYzLaGzPuDF4wbPI83wPl0xP2Xgs/view?usp=sharing

Tom Crean was one of 11 children and evidence of this appears in the 1911 census in which the return confirms that Catherine Crean, Tom’s mother, gave birth to 11 children, 8 of which were still alive Source: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003928489/

Evidence of Crean’s presence at Corinto (Wiki article https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Nicaragua_Crisis_of_1895 under heading British Occupation at Corinto) is to be found in his Admiralty service record ADM 188/287 stored at the National Archives. Crean served on the flagship of the Pacific Station HMS Royal Arthur (https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/HMS_Royal_Arthur_(1891)) which he was assigned to on 14th March 1895. Crean served on Royal Arthur until 30th September 1895. This places him present at the occupation of Corinto in April 1895 and it is 'likely’ though not conclusive, that he was among the 400 men who occupied the town prior to the indemnity being paid and the ships leaving the port.Regardless of whether he was among the force of men who occupied the town it happens to be a significant event in the life of Tom Crean to warrant inclusion in the article. During his service aboard Royal Arthur and on what was then assumed to be his 18th birthday (20th July 1877), he was rated an Ordinary Seaman, an automatic rise given to navy personnel reaching the age in which the Navy considered them to be a man.

Section: Terra Nova Expedition

To reference Crean’s resolve and the gratitude of Evans to Crean for saving his life, might I suggest the inclusion of a quote from a speech Evan’s made in New York to a crowded Carnegie Hall on March 17th 1914 in which he said: When I begged them to leave me, it was Crean, who, speaking for himself and Lashly said: 'If you are to go out sir then we’ll all go out together” Source: New York Times 18th March 1914, page 11


Section: Imperial Trans-Antarctic Expedition (Endurance Expedition) 1914-17 A rival expedition leader, Joseph Foster Stackhouse, who was to lead the British Antarctic Expedition of 1914 to Antarctica, had earmarked Crean for inclusion having earlier singled him out for praise Source: (ATTRACTIONS OF THE ARCTIC. (1914, January 3). The Register (Adelaide, SA : 1901 - 1929), p. 11. Retrieved September 19, 2018, from http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article57177649)As late as May 1914 Stackhouse announced Crean as his probable boatswain Source: (THE ICY SOUTH (1914, May 4). Warwick Examiner and Times (Qld. : 1867 - 1919), p. 3. Retrieved September 19, 2018, from http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article82174128), for the expedition that was to commence in August 1914 yet the expedition postponed until a later date. Shackleton secured Crean’s services for Endurance on 22nd June 1914 Source: (Irish Examiner 23rd June 1914 Page 7)

The proposed delay of Stackhouse's expedition was a date he could not keep because whilst returning from a fundraising trip to the USA for the proposed expedition, he perished under heroic circumstances when RMS Lusitania was struck by a torpedo off the coast of Ireland in May 1915. Sources: (https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/RMS_Lusitania) and http://www.rmslusitania.info/people/saloon/joseph-foster-stackhouse/

A notable assignment and his last before serving under Shackleton on the Imperial Transantarctic expedition aboard Endurance was between 23rd January and the 24th May when he served aboard HMS Enchantress, the Admiralty yacht used regularly by Winston Churchill prior to the outbreak of war.

Crean was promoted to Acting Boatswain on 27th December 1916 and was confirmed in the role ‘Boatswain’ as a Warrant Officer on 2nd January 1918. On 14th November 1918, three days after the end of WorldWar One, Crean was assigned as Boatswain to HMS Inflexible, one of the battleships present at Scapa Flow for the surrender of the German High Seas Fleet. Source for this information is again taken from his service record at National Archives (Catalogue Reference ADM 196/157) and confirmation of HMS Inflexible being present at Scapa Flow on 21st November 1918, for the surrender can be sourced via https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/HMS_Inflexible_(1907) He left HMS Inflexible to be assigned to HMS Fox on 14th March 1919. HMS Fox was part of the North Russian Expeditionary force whose remit was to halt the advance of the Bolsheviks. Crean is twice referenced in the ship’s log which can be sourced at https://www.naval-history.net/OWShips-WW1-05-HMS_Fox.htm and his role appears to have been in the supply of provisions to the main body of armed forces serving on the Dvina river. His last assignment was aboard HMS Hecla and he was admitted to Chatham Naal Hospital with Retinitis on the 24th February 1920. He was retired medically unfit on 24th March 1920. Source: ADM 196/157.


Section: Later Life

Crean had applied for a licence to sell alcohol in his dwelling house in March 1917 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QZDQ04CUZcYlizmCBz_T1BExA60uBEyY/view?usp=sharing) and was granted the licence in April 1917 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1m8gFYQ-CvvaPVjXekXlS2-ndVjDCfjrW/view?usp=sharing) Because of flooding issues from the nearby river Crean rebuilt the premises to a two storey dwelling in 1929 and it was hence known as The South Pole Inn.

I happen to believe that Crean didn't keep a low profile because of anything other than it being an intrinsic part of his character - anything else is merely a matter of and a difference of opinion. He was a man who never wished to be in the spotlight and to correlate that with the political situation is just conjecture that doesn’t belong in a factual summary of his life. It’s true to state that the area Crean was born and returned to was a hotbed of Irish Nationalism and later Irish republicanism as the article states but there's no evidence that Crean keeping a low profile had any connection to the divisions of the time. It's just a matter of different opinions and each has validity from those who hold them. I believe this section can be written in a better and more balanced way to reflect that.

Section: Legacy

My suggestions would be to add the following to this section:

Since 2010, a campaign to secure official state honour for Tom Crean has been operating via the Facebook Page Ireland Should Honour Tom Crean www.facebook.com/honourtomcrean In late 2017 the page created a petition handed over to the Irish Government which had generated over 10,200 signatures to have a planned Irish Navy Flagship named in his honour. The decision will be made at a keel laying ceremony when the construction of the ship gets underway.

Norwegian Airlines made the decision to make Tom Crean their first Irish Tail Fin Hero in 2017 Source: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/tom-crean-explores-new-heights-on-norwegian-air-tailfin-1.3156966

An underwater feature off the coast of New Zealand was, in 2015, named Crean Deep by Leighton Crolley of the Schmidt Ocean Institute. Source: https://schmidtocean.org/discovering-and-naming-crean-deep/


Section Notes:

Note 5 and 74 are dead links. Note 72 links to references instead of the relevant webpage. Note 34 - Letters to unknown person - The letters were written to Lietenant James P Kennedy, Crean’s commanding officer at Chatham and a family friend who appeared to be Crean’s mentor and guardian - Kennedy was born in an adjacent townland to Crean and their relationship was such that Crean was chosen as Godfather to Kennedy’s daughter. Source: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uWFpGmIwOfM5klzQd62c6sEVWePdI3_A/view?usp=sharing


Section: External Links

Tom Crean Appreciation Society Facebook Group www.facebook.com/groups/TomCreanAppreciationSociety Tom Crean Discovery platform created in 2014 which continues to highlight Crean’s story www.facebook.com/tomcreandiscovery


Section: References:

The addition of the book: Foley, Tim, Crean - The Extraordinary Life of an Irish Hero, 2018, Keel Foley Publishing, Manchester - (ISBN10) 1999918916 (ISBN13) 978-1-9999189-1-0 For the changes being suggested I will provide Notes to the relevant page numbers of the book so these can be added to the Notes section when the article has been adapted by an editor

I’m happy to provide further sources and references should the need arise and given my own COI as stated before requesting the changes, the task of implementing changes has to fall to an experienced Wiki editor. I’m happy to collaborate if required.Timfoley50 (talk) 19:58, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

Reply 19-SEP-2018

Hi @Timfoley50: Since the information you are seeking to add comes from a self-published source, I've passed on your request to the reliable sources noticeboard to acquire their assistance here in order to see if the source is acceptable. We should hear something shortly. Thank you!  Spintendo  20:53, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

Hi @Spintendo: Thanks for your response and I've been following the discussion in reliable sources noticeboard. I just wanted to clarify that yes, I am the self-publisher and the publishing imprint is just Keel Foley Publishing, without 'Company' at the end of the title. I and others class myself as an authority on Crean and at the same time recognise the COI implications should I have edited the article. As I mentioned earlier I will be as co-operative as possible to whoever adapts the article and will provide further sources if necessary - thanks again Timfoley50 (talk) 16:27, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
Thank you Mr. Foley, and I should note that you have indeed been following all the suggestions for COI editing and I appreciate that. As you know, at the RS noticeboard the only concerns expressed were length of the requested changes and perhaps the detail of the suggestions, to which I suggested placing the request at the Military Biography WikiProject (MBWP), which has an excellent reputation for concise reviews of their articles. In fact that was the forum I initially wanted to move this to, but wanted to stop off at RS just to make sure all our bases were covered. Unless I hear anything more from RS, we can go ahead and make a request at the MBWP. I'll start with a general request at their discussion page, then they can direct us to where within the project that the article would best be served. Thank you!  Spintendo  20:18, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
@Timfoley50: I am about to begin the request for comments (RFC) process for the changes you have requested. Before I do, I'd like you to have a look at the RFC to let me know if anything needs to be changed. Most importantly, I've added a numbering system to your requests, as your version does not contain this, and having the numbers makes the request easier to peruse. Please have a look and let me know if any changes are needed before the RFC begins. The information is all shown below under the RFC heading. Please note that when the RFC begins, I'd like you to interact with the editors who leave comments here. Even though I will be placing the RFC, you are the COI editor who wishes the changes to be implemented, and you are the one best equipped to answer editor's questions about this information. When the RFC is about finished, a third editor who isn't you and isn't me will need to be found to close the process. For now, before the RFC begins, please make any responses to me just below my signature here in this thread, but above the RFC heading below. Thank you  Spintendo  06:48, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

Hi @Spintendo: and thank you for coming back to me on this. The article opens with Crean's birthdate and if editors reach a similar conclusion as I did then it would not require an explanation as we can't determine why he was baptised under the name Joanna. Any reference to Crean being 15 and lying about his age need not appear given that we know he was 16 and we have evidence of Crean confirming this. If the editors agree then both these points can be referenced to my book and the relevant pages. The request therefore, is for these two changes to the paragraphs that open the article.
1. Three changes to Early life and career. 1.One of '11' siblings. 2. Reference in existing section to him being 15 when he joined is just a duplication of the opening paragraphs and would I advise just the single accurate reference in this section or the opening section to his being 16 years old when he joined the Navy. 3. The Corinto incident should be incorporated into this section after reference to Crean joining HMS Arthur. Again if editors agree after determining the reliability of the sources these can be referenced to the relevant pages of my book.
2 One change to Terra Nova expedition section Yes, I agree and the reference Evans made in his address to the audience at Carnegie Hall signifies the type of character Crean was.
3 Four changes to Imperial Trans-Antarctic Expedition section.
     1. His last assignment before joining the expedition on HMS Enchantress (sources also prove that Churchill had written a letter from the Admiralty yacht while Crean was serving on board). His service aboard the yacht is significant but maybe not necessary to reference Churchill's presence unless editors see otherwise.
     2. Reference to Foster Stackhouse wishing to recruit Crean should, I believe, be included. It reflects how sought after and how effective Crean's skills were to his expedition leaders.
     3. Foster Stackhouse drowning while travelling back from USA aboard Lusitania, may be considered peripheral to Crean's story but I believe it would enhance this section.

     4. Reference to Crean being promoted to Acting Boatswain on 27th December 1916 would fit well in this section
4. Five changes to Later life section 1.Reference of Crean securing a license to sell alcohol 2. Confirmed in the role ‘Boatswain’ as a Warrant Officer on 2nd January 1918. 3. Service aboard HMS Inflexible. 4. Serving on HMS Fox in Russia. 4, Reaching consensus on Crean 'keeping a low proflie' 5. 5.Rebuilding house to a two storey dweling and naming it South Pole Inn in 1929.
5. Three changes to Legacy section - agree
6. Three changes to Notes section - agree
7. Two changes to External links section - agree

As stated I can supply page and source references for my book in relation to the changes being requested. I am happy to liaise with editors chosen to adapt the article Timfoley50 (talk) 16:41, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

I've rewritten the RFC based on your feedback. Please add this page to your watchlist if you haven't already so that you will be notified immediately of new replies. When the RFC is done, an editor who cannot be you or me must be brought in to end the discussion. This is because I assisted with starting the RFC as a consequence of your original COI edit request, which as I understand it, technically makes me "involved". So I will request another editor to close the RFC just to be sure of no improprieties.  Spintendo  14:29, 29 September 2018 (UTC)

RFC SEP-29-2018

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
The request by a COI editor to add information to the article from their SPS was withdrawn.  Spintendo  11:22, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

The writer of the above self-published book (editor Timfoley50) has asked to incorporate changes from their book into the article. These changes include:

  1. Three changes to Early life and career
  2. Six changes to Later life section
  3. Four changes to Imperial Trans-Antarctic Expedition section
  4. One change to Terra Nova expedition section
  5. Three changes to Legacy section
  6. Three changes to Notes section
  7. Two changes to External links section

I've already taken the request to the reliable sources noticeboard, where the response was that the request was too lengthy and/or too technical. However, nothing was stated at that time about the reliability of the source. Editors here are asked to comment on the suitability and feasibility of incorporating these edits into the article. Below in the collapsible section are his requested changes. Please note that in instances where the text refers to "I" or "My" or "Me", this is referring to the COI editor Timfoley50 and not myself, Spintendo. I have copied the text in the collapsible section from an earlier post made by the COI editor on this talk page in their initial COI edit request which I answered. Based on the COI editor's feedback, additional alterations to that quoted text were made, including the addition of a numbering system to the individual requests which was not present in the original COI edit request. The COI editor is monitoring this page and will answer any questions/concerns that other editors have.  Spintendo  06:48, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

Requested edits
 Below are editor Timfoley50's suggestions based on research from his self-published book. 
  • Section: Early Life and Career
  1. Crean's age Registered as Joanna Crean born to parents Pat and Catherine Crean at Gortacurraun on February 16th 1877 - This baptism with a name error points to that of Tom Crean whose birth certificate was registered 9 days later on 25th February 1877. The reason for the name error could possibly be to the Parish priest writing up the register later and although not conclusive, the fact remains that this child was born to the parents of Tom Crean at the family’s townland of Gortacurraun. Other potential explanations such as the possibility of Tom Crean being a twin, can be discounted as his name would have also appeared on the baptism and the return of the census would have registered 12 children, not 11 as appeared in the 1911 census - see notes below. Source to baptism https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634231#page/169/mode/1up Source to Crean's birth certificate https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1877/03016/2105300.pdf Creans service record details his birthdate as being 20th July 1877, it’s an anomaly that exists in a number of Naval records yet the reasons aren’t clear. What is certain, given the above details on his true birthdate, is that Crean was 16 years and almost 5 months old when he joined. He confirms this himself when speaking in a court case in 1930. Source: The Kerry Champion 1st November 1930 here is the snippet from that publication - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HWGBdYzLaGzPuDF4wbPI83wPl0xP2Xgs/view?usp=sharing
  2. Tom Crean was one of 11 children and evidence of this appears in the 1911 census in which the return confirms that Catherine Crean, Tom’s mother, gave birth to 11 children, 8 of which were still alive Source: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003928489/
  3. Evidence of Crean’s presence at Corinto (Wiki article https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Nicaragua_Crisis_of_1895 under heading British Occupation at Corinto) is to be found in his Admiralty service record ADM 188/287 stored at the National Archives. Crean served on the flagship of the Pacific Station HMS Royal Arthur (https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/HMS_Royal_Arthur_(1891)) which he was assigned to on 14th March 1895. Crean served on Royal Arthur until 30th September 1895. This places him present at the occupation of Corinto in April 1895 and it is 'likely’ though not conclusive, that he was among the 400 men who occupied the town prior to the indemnity being paid and the ships leaving the port.Regardless of whether he was among the force of men who occupied the town it happens to be a significant event in the life of Tom Crean to warrant inclusion in the article. During his service aboard Royal Arthur and on what was then assumed to be his 18th birthday (20th July 1877), he was rated an Ordinary Seaman, an automatic rise given to navy personnel reaching the age in which the Navy considered them to be a man.
  • Section: Terra Nova Expedition
  1. Quote inclusion To reference Crean’s resolve and the gratitude of Evans to Crean for saving his life, might I suggest the inclusion of a quote from a speech Evan’s made in New York to a crowded Carnegie Hall on March 17th 1914 in which he said: When I begged them to leave me, it was Crean, who, speaking for himself and Lashly said: 'If you are to go out sir then we’ll all go out together” Source: New York Times 18th March 1914, page 11
  • Section: Imperial Trans-Antarctic Expedition (Endurance Expedition) 1914-17
  1. Recruitment A rival expedition leader, Joseph Foster Stackhouse, who was to lead the British Antarctic Expedition of 1914 to Antarctica, had earmarked Crean for inclusion having earlier singled him out for praise Source: (ATTRACTIONS OF THE ARCTIC. (1914, January 3). The Register (Adelaide, SA : 1901 - 1929), p. 11. Retrieved September 19, 2018, from http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article57177649) As late as May 1914 Stackhouse announced Crean as his probable boatswain Source: (THE ICY SOUTH (1914, May 4). Warwick Examiner and Times (Qld. : 1867 - 1919), p. 3. Retrieved September 19, 2018, from http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article82174128), for the expedition that was to commence in August 1914 yet the expedition postponed until a later date. Shackleton secured Crean’s services for Endurance on 22nd June 1914 Source: (Irish Examiner 23rd June 1914 Page 7)
  2. Drowning The proposed delay of Stackhouse's expedition was a date he could not keep because whilst returning from a fundraising trip to the USA for the proposed expedition, he perished under heroic circumstances when RMS Lusitania was struck by a torpedo off the coast of Ireland in May 1915. Sources: (https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/RMS_Lusitania) and http://www.rmslusitania.info/people/saloon/joseph-foster-stackhouse/
  3. Last assignment A notable assignment and his last before serving under Shackleton on the Imperial Transantarctic expedition aboard Endurance was between 23rd January and the 24th May when he served aboard HMS Enchantress, the Admiralty yacht used regularly by Winston Churchill prior to the outbreak of war.
  4. Promotion Crean was promoted to Acting Boatswain on 27th December 1916 and was confirmed in the role ‘Boatswain’ as a Warrant Officer on 2nd January 1918. On 14th November 1918, three days after the end of WorldWar One, Crean was assigned as Boatswain to HMS Inflexible, one of the battleships present at Scapa Flow for the surrender of the German High Seas Fleet. Source for this information is again taken from his service record at National Archives (Catalogue Reference ADM 196/157) and confirmation of HMS Inflexible being present at Scapa Flow on 21st November 1918, for the surrender can be sourced via https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/HMS_Inflexible_(1907) He left HMS Inflexible to be assigned to HMS Fox on 14th March 1919. HMS Fox was part of the North Russian Expeditionary force whose remit was to halt the advance of the Bolsheviks. Crean is twice referenced in the ship’s log which can be sourced at https://www.naval-history.net/OWShips-WW1-05-HMS_Fox.htm and his role appears to have been in the supply of provisions to the main body of armed forces serving on the Dvina river. His last assignment was aboard HMS Hecla and he was admitted to Chatham Naal Hospital with Retinitis on the 24th February 1920. He was retired medically unfit on 24th March 1920. Source: ADM 196/157.
  • Section: Later Life
  1. Alcohol Reference of Crean securing a license to sell alcohol
  2. Warrant Officer Confirmed in the role ‘Boatswain’ as a Warrant Officer on 2nd January 1918.
  3. Service aboard HMS Inflexible.
  4. Serving on HMS Fox in Russia.
  5. Low Profile Reaching consensus on Crean 'keeping a low proflie'
  6. Rebuilding house to a two storey dweling and naming it South Pole Inn in 1929.
  • Section: Legacy- My suggestions would be to add the following to this section:
  1. Since 2010, a campaign to secure official state honour for Tom Crean has been operating via the Facebook Page Ireland Should Honour Tom Crean www.facebook.com/honourtomcrean In late 2017 the page created a petition handed over to the Irish Government which had generated over 10,200 signatures to have a planned Irish Navy Flagship named in his honour. The decision will be made at a keel laying ceremony when the construction of the ship gets underway.
  2. Norwegian Airlines made the decision to make Tom Crean their first Irish Tail Fin Hero in 2017 Source: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/tom-crean-explores-new-heights-on-norwegian-air-tailfin-1.3156966
  3. An underwater feature off the coast of New Zealand was, in 2015, named Crean Deep by Leighton Crolley of the Schmidt Ocean Institute. Source: https://schmidtocean.org/discovering-and-naming-crean-deep/
  • Section Notes:
  1. Note 5 and 74 are dead links.
  2. Note 72 links to references instead of the relevant webpage.
  3. Note 34 - Letters to unknown person - The letters were written to Lietenant James P Kennedy, Crean’s commanding officer at Chatham and a family friend who appeared to be Crean’s mentor and guardian - Kennedy was born in an adjacent townland to Crean and their relationship was such that Crean was chosen as Godfather to Kennedy’s daughter. Source: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uWFpGmIwOfM5klzQd62c6sEVWePdI3_A/view?usp=sharing
  • Section: External Links
  1. Tom Crean Appreciation Society Facebook Group www.facebook.com/groups/TomCreanAppreciationSociety
  2. Tom Crean Discovery platform created in 2014 which continues to highlight Crean’s story www.facebook.com/tomcreandiscovery
  • Section: References:
  1. The addition of the book: Foley, Tim, Crean - The Extraordinary Life of an Irish Hero, 2018, Keel Foley Publishing, Manchester (ISBN13) 978-1-9999189-1-0
  2. For the changes being suggested I will provide Notes to the relevant page numbers of the book so these can be added to the Notes section when the article has been adapted by an editor I’m happy to provide further sources and references should the need arise and given my own COI as stated before requesting the changes, the task of implementing changes has to fall to an experienced Wiki editor. I’m happy to collaborate if required.
Reading earlier conversations, I see that Crean: The Extraordinary Life of an Irish Hero is self published. I'm afraid this disqualifies it as a reliable source according to Wikipedia standards of sourcing. That's a reflection of Wikipedia's standards, not the author or the book. More info on self-published sources can be found at WP:SPS and WP:RSSELF.
What's the basis of the COI? I'm certainly no expert on WP:COI, but if it's only the book, then the author can, I believe, still make edits to the article himself based on other sources, assuming of course that they are reliable.
As far as the suggested edits are concerned, I've looked at the sources rather than the edits themselves. I don't believe Google Drive is an acceptable source. The documents it's being used to host (e.g. the newspaper) should be referenced directly. Given that this article is FA, I don't believe that rmslusitania.info and naval-history.net meet the necessary standard for reliability. I see some links to Wikipedia in the suggested edits; Wikipedia itself, of course, cannot be used as a source. Facebook is specifically excluded as an acceptable external link.
If it helps, there's no issue with the use of primary sources, so long as they are used to support straight facts and not as part of any analysis, evaluation, interpretation or synthesis. WP:PRIMARY has more details about use of such sources.
Not the answers hoped for I guess, and scant reward for being a good guy and doing things by the book. You might be able to make the case for adding the book to the Further reading section. Obviously the author cannot do this themself, but another editor might. The only guidance I can find on this is at Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Layout#Further_reading, which makes no mention of whether any further reading must meet WP standards of reliability. There's also Wikipedia:Further_reading#Reliable, but that only states what most editors choose, not what standards editors must adhere to in choosing, and is anyway only an essay.
HTH Factotem (talk) 17:22, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
Reply: You're correct Factotem, it is self published. I apologize for not highlighting that better in my opening statement, and I thank you for pointing that out. I went ahead and added that point above. Sorry about that  Spintendo  20:20, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
Factotem I understand the importance of determining the facts for inclusion or alteration to any Wikipedia article and if they happen to be identified via sources discovered in a self-published book, then providing they are verifiable by those charged with editing an article, they are as valid and possibly more valid than from a book commissioned by an established publisher in which the author may not have provided reliable sources.
If the Wikipedia standards are such that only content sourced from authors commissioned by an established publisher is considered a reliable source then it’s futile for me to request or expect changes regardless of their credibility merely because they appear in a self-published book - surely this cannot be correct or fair. If that rule restricts editors from making changes then it's a rule that requires changing.
I can’t recall requesting that Google Drive be accepted as a reliable source. I did provide visuals and a part-visual of clippings from my Google Drive that correlate to a news publication, the reference to which are reliable sources and in one case, the source was detailed alongside the clipping.
As for not being able to utilise Wikipedia articles as reliable sources, with hindsight, I should never have referenced any but will happily provide an alternative valid source.
Might I suggest that rather than deciding to list a number of rules, regulations as reasons why changes cannot be made, to instead focus on each suggested point of change and tell me what is required as a ‘reliable source’. Beginning with Crean's correct birthdate, his age when he joined the Navy and the number of siblings the sources are reliable and I've provided them. Given the number of changes I believe it better to tackle one or two at a time.
If, however, my being a self-published author prevents this, then I see no point in continuing the discussion on here with regard to any alterations. I spent almost two years researching the book and was extremely careful to identify my sources as being reliable before publishing it. Timfoley50 (talk) 21:18, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
Mr. Foley no one here is doubting the time, effort, and dedication you put into the making of this book. And while it may seem frustrating to be confronted with rules which restrict the adding of materials to Wikipedia, I assure you that Factotem's initial mentioning of the rules first before delving into the particulars of the content is correct. Every editor should naturally examine questions of content additions first through the dual filters of policy and guidelines, just as Factotem did. These policies and guidelines have been put into place because consensus is that the project is better for them, than without them. I apologize if I didn't adequately explain the issues surrounding WP:SELFPUBLISH to you before this process began. (I did mention it briefly to you in our first exchange on this page.) Suffice it to say, the reason why we are here is that there are exceptions to the self-published rule, and we need consensus from the wider community to determine whether or not your publication meets any of those exceptions. Without this consensus the result would be that the version of the article as it existed before the request was made would be retained, meaning no material would be added. Thus, the road ahead may seem circuitous and daunting, but it is necessary in order to answer the question which you first raised in your COI edit request: can my research and findings be included in Wikipedia. Only input from editors like Factotem who are willing to offer it here in this forum can give you that answer, and I hope I can speak for the both of us when I say that we are appreciative of their time.  Spintendo  06:06, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
Spintendo, I appreciate that the process will require the valuable input of editors in order to reach consensus prior to any changes and I remain happy to assist by answering any questions and providing necessary reliable sources in order to implement the changes. The article, as it stands is not accurate and my own research confirms this. The difficulty I have in directing others to much of that research is that the sources I discovered were, in many cases, identified via paid subscriptions for that information. Examples being the Naval service records, newspaper publications etc. Providing the visuals via my own records was my only means of accompanying the titles and dates of the publications/documents without it being restrictive to editors given the requirement to pay for that information. It's also important to state that I am a small independent publisher and that my book is widely available in two versions - one version is a POD made by Lightning Source via Ingram Spark - ISBN 0781000018934 and the other a private print version already detailed in this discussion. It isn't a vanity publication and is available via Waterstones, Tom Crean's former home, the South Pole Inn and RSS Discovery among many other bookstores since it's recent release. I accept Facebook references are a non-starter and that request can be wiped. The campaign does though have an external link to an ongoing Change petition that may be possible for consideration.Timfoley50 (talk) 10:52, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
You support your assertion that Crean was born on 16 February 1877 with an entry in the parish register, a primary source. The only facts that source supports is that Joanna Crean was born on 16 February 1877 to "Patr. Crean" and "Cath. Cowmane" of "Gortacussane" (as best I can read the writing). That may be wrong, but that's what the source says, so that's all that can be stated in Wikipedia based on it. If the priest made errors in that entry, then a reliable secondary source must be found to support such a claim. The birth certificate you link to, another primary source, states that Thomas Crean was born on 25 February to Patrick and Catherine (née Cournane(?)) of Gortacussane, and was registered on 11 March. This birth date is reflected in the article, but sourced to http://tomcreandiscovery.com. I don't believe this is a reliable source either. I note that when this article was promoted to Featured Article status, it stated a birth date of 20 July, sourced to Michael Smith's book An Unsung Hero: Tom Crean - Antarctic Survivor. That source, even if your own research indicates it is erroneous, is the 'best' source in terms of Wikipedia policy and, of all the sources discussed here, the only legitimate source (again, within the context of Wikipedia policy). Your assertion of Crean's age when he joined the navy is rooted in your own research into his birth date which, I hope I have established, cannot be reflected in Wikipedia. That assertion might also stray into synthesis. Factotem (talk) 13:02, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but your work qualifies as original research. It makes no difference that you have gone to the time, effort and expense to both research the subject and publish a book. It's core Wikipedia policy that original research and self-published sources are not permitted. An exception to the self-publishing restriction can only be made for an author who is an "...established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications". In the absence of such recognition, even if your research has identified errors in the secondary sources, those erroneous secondary sources take precedence and are invariably the only sources we can use. Sounds stupid, I know, but that's Wikipedia. Factotem (talk) 13:02, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
Factotem Yes, I agree, Sounds stupid and will render Wikipedia an unreliable source of the facts about Tom Crean. Even if the baptism entry of 16th Feb 1877, doesn't appear conclusive to others, and to my mind it absolutely does, the birth registration is confirmation that he was born 5 months earlier than 20th July but solely because what we now know to be erroneous information was sourced from a 'reliable third-party publication' it is accepted as the factual version to convey to Wikipedia readers. The rules and restrictions you make reference to make any efforts to provide and incorporate the facts and missing information to this article, a futile exercise. I'm sorry I wasted my time. Any discussion is pointless if ridiculous policies get in the way of presenting the facts. I didn't just step out of the woodwork to write a book about Tom Crean. For 8 years I've operated a campaign to try and secure him national recognition and have written countless articles and posts about him over the period. Reaching consensus here with editors appealed to me but having rules and restrictions that allow inaccuracies to remain have no appeal whatsoever and I will now bow out and let readers make their own minds up if they come across this discussion.Timfoley50 (talk) 16:51, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

I've changed the DOB back to the Smith-sourced date used when the article achieved FA status, and have removed the tomcreandiscovery.com reference. Factotem you mentioned the possibility of adding Mr. Foley's publication to the further reading section. Did you still feel that would be ok? If I'm reading this correctly I think that was the extent of what was felt that could be added at this time, if that still happens to be the case.  Spintendo  01:55, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

That date change is the right thing to do, I think. I've added Tim Foley's book to the Further reading section. Let's see if anyone objects to that. I'm not sure about Ian O'Shea's book in that list. The publisher URL, lmnopshop.com, appears to be a website design consultancy. The publication is listed on Amazon, but as a 12-page book, I wonder if there's any value in keeping that? Factotem (talk) 08:36, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
I looked up the O'Shea book and even though it has an entry in WorldCat (OCLC 927117794) no libraries are marked anywhere as carrying it, which is slightly odd. Amazon says it's out of print (ASIN 0956956335). At 12 pages, it's more pamphlet than book (or perhaps a children's book?) Since the URL isn't right I'm just going to remove it.  Spintendo  12:02, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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