Talk:Time in Finland/GA1

GA Review[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Reviewer: Mujinga (talk · contribs) 10:41, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Review[edit]

Taking this on as part of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/GAN Backlog Drives/January 2022. Looking forward to learning something! Mujinga (talk) 10:41, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for an interesting article, I've made some comments below and will put the article on hold for seven days for you to answer them. If you need more time, that's not a problem, we can figure something out. Feel free to ping me with clarifications or when you are done. Mujinga (talk) 13:44, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'll make some replies now Mujinga (talk) 07:27, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Some replies and clarifications added Mujinga (talk) 07:54, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've come back for a check and I think the article is in good enough condition to pass now. Perhaps you can add to it as you continue to make Time in X articles, the lead could possibl be expanded to include those last sections which might get expanded, but a good article can always be improved and I'm satisfied with how it is now. Cheers! Mujinga (talk) 23:52, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Good Article review progress box

Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV ()

3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant ()

Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

Copyvio check[edit]

Nothing major to worry about on an earwig check.
I would suggest changing this sentence a bit - "According to Yle, the government is likely to collect the opinions of experts in the field as well as those of the public before making a decision" which in the source is "According to Yle's information, the government would be likely to collect the opinions of experts in the field, as well as those of the public."
- Thank you, I will reword this later today. LunaEatsTuna (talk) 16:36, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  - Changed to According to Yle, the government would first collect the opinions of experts on the subject as well as those of the public before making a decision. Is this better? LunaEatsTuna (talk) 12:36, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    - Honestly it still seems a bit close, if we are rephrasing may as well change more for example: 'Yle (the Finnish national broadcasting company) stated that the government would gather expert opinions and consult the public before making changes' Mujinga (talk) 07:29, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      - Changed to Yle, Finland's national broadcasting company, has stated that the government would first gather expert opinions and consult the public before implementing changes. Third times the charm? LunaEatsTuna (talk) 13:54, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
        great! Mujinga (talk) 23:47, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Pictures[edit]

File:Helsinki observatory.jpg: license ok, for the caption should it be "The Helsinki University Observatory, on which Finland's local mean time IS based"?
- Done, YEP! Thank you. LunaEatsTuna (talk) 16:44, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
File:Hämeenlinna railway station.jpg: license ok, for caption don't need the circa
- I changed it to say pictured in the 19th century instead, as I do not see much relevance in knowing the precise date (or a roughly thirty year estimate) LunaEatsTuna (talk) 16:44, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
File:Tzdiff-Europe-winter.png license ok, could perhaps be relocated or replaced by a pic of Muotkavaara
- Hmm… thanks, I will consider this. Do you find the current image unnecessary? Personally I think it illustrates something that may be hard for some readers to picture when described in words. LunaEatsTuna (talk) 16:46, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  - I don't find it unnecessary, but i suppose if you add the template it might be. The caption saying "Map of Europe with differences between time zones and UTC offsets, showing Finland at the top" I find a bit confusing, maybe better to say "top middle" Mujinga (talk) 07:39, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    - I have replaced it with an image of Muotkavaara instead since I added the time zones of Europe template. LunaEatsTuna (talk) 13:54, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
File:Time zones of Europe.svg could be added as an overview pic?
- Pardon me for the ignorance, do you mean in the infobox itself or the first image below the infobox? LunaEatsTuna (talk) 16:44, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  - Oh i meant the image at the top of Time_in_the_United_Kingdom, which is actually part of the template "Time zones of Europe" Mujinga (talk) 22:22, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    - Ah, what I meant was do you think Time zones of Europe.svg should be put in the infobox or under it? Sorry for the confusion, LunaEatsTuna (talk) 16:38, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      - We are talking at cross purposes here it seems! Now I think it would be good to add the template, perhaps under the infobox. It's colourful and informative, I like it at Time in the United Kingdom for example. Mujinga (talk) 07:39, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
        The template looks good! I initially did not add it since it squishes the text a little bit with the other image, but I really do like it as it is now. LunaEatsTuna (talk) 13:54, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
        i agree it looks nice and i think it would be good to have it on all European 'Time in X' articles Mujinga (talk) 23:48, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Lead[edit]

I'll come back to this last, for now I'll note per MOS:LEAD the lead should summarise the article and usually that means the citations will be in the text itself not the lead.

– in-line the EU directive suggest in-line with the EU directive
- Done LunaEatsTuna (talk) 16:31, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
the referenced stuff should be moved into the article below and summarized here
- I should be able to get to working on that later today or tomorrow. LunaEatsTuna (talk) 16:31, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  - Done, also expanded the lead by adding a brief history of Finland's time zone. LunaEatsTuna (talk) 12:38, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    - Nice, it's improved! I would still suggest movign the two references down. Mujinga (talk) 07:44, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      - Done LunaEatsTuna (talk) 13:54, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    - Also I'd suggest splitting the first sentence into two. Mujinga (talk) 07:44, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      - Done LunaEatsTuna (talk) 13:54, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    - "which is three hours ahead of coordinated universal time" - don't think that's mentioned in article Mujinga (talk) 07:44, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      - The DST section just refers to it as UTC+03:00. Must it (or the lead) be reworded? LunaEatsTuna (talk) 13:54, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
        yes i thought you might say that and it's fair enough Mujinga (talk) 23:49, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

History[edit]

The first railway line in Finland – Hämeenlinna railway station – was inaugurated in 1862 are we talking about the railway line or the station here?
- Done: Fixed, changed Hämeenlinna railway station to Hämeenlinna–Helsinki railway (name of the first railway line) LunaEatsTuna (talk) 16:31, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"Helsinki time" redirects here so unneeded link
- Done: Unlinked LunaEatsTuna (talk) 16:31, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
used until Kaipiainen suggest as far as Kaipiainen
- Done LunaEatsTuna (talk) 16:31, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
at midnight of the Walpurgis Night suggest at midnight on Walpurgis Night
- Done LunaEatsTuna (talk) 16:31, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Daylight saving time (DST) was first attempted on 2 April 1942, by moving forward one hour at 00:00 and back again on 4 October at 01:00, but this was found less useful, and DST was not used in the following decades - is all this really covered by the source?
- Done (idk why I keep using this template): Yes – The first sentence of page 104 reads "Suomessa kokeiltiin kesä- aikaa ensimmäisen kerran 1942", which translated is "Summer time was first tried in Finland in 1942", and the table on page 105 illustrates 'year • summer time began • summer time ended'. The entry for 1942 gives "2.4. klo 24→1 [2.4 (2 April) at 24 (24:00 equals 00:00) → (to) 1]" for dst start and "4.10. klo 1→0 [4.10 (4 October) at 1 → 0]" for dst end. Though I do not speak Finnish, an acquaintance from Discord who is Finnish translated these for me. I believe you could replicate the same result on DeepL Translator to verify this? LunaEatsTuna (talk) 16:31, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  - great thanks, i have been using deepl but i thought this ref was only on page 105, so that clears up the confusion Mujinga (talk) 07:45, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Daylight saving time[edit]

seems like the previous paragraph under "Introduction of daylight saving time" would fit better in this section and then the duplication over 1981 can be avoided
- Done, the aforementioned section has been merged into "Daylight saving time". LunaEatsTuna (talk) 16:31, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
As Finland is located far north, there is little change in daylight hours and ultimately little need for the observance of daylight saving time. It is only observed in order to make travelling and communication between the Nordics and Russia easier - this sentence cannot be sourced to page 105, which is just a table. Also suggest "Nordic states" for "Nordics"
- Done: 105 was a typo, changed to page 104, where it is cited. Also changed Nordics to Nordic states. LunaEatsTuna (talk) 16:31, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Future[edit]

not keen on the section header being future, perhaps something like New proposals ?
- Done, renamed section to "Proposals to end daylight saving time". (a mouthful, but it works) LunaEatsTuna (talk) 16:31, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Though in order for this to be valid, the standard European Union legislative procedure must be followed, including that the Council of the European Union and the European Parliament must both approve the proposal. reads a bit garbled, can you rephrase?
- Done, rephrased to Though in order for this to be valid, both the Council of the European Union and the European Parliament must first both approve the proposal as previous mention of legislative procedure was redundant and not necessary. LunaEatsTuna (talk) 16:31, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
as of November 2021 - any update?
- I searched around the web for a bit, could not find any updates on this yet. Done? LunaEatsTuna (talk) 16:31, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  - cool, maybe just put the sentence in past tense then Mujinga (talk) 07:48, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    - Done LunaEatsTuna (talk) 13:54, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
has remained keen to end - suggest "remains in favour of ending"
- Done LunaEatsTuna (talk) 16:31, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It is not yet known - rather have a time-dated statement here. also any update?
- I removed the mention of a date altogether and changed it to say If the practice were to end, it is not known whether or not […]. Thoughts on this? LunaEatsTuna (talk) 16:31, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  - nice that works Mujinga (talk) 07:48, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
According to Yle, the government is likely to collect the opinions of experts in the field as well as those of the public before making a decision - see comment on this sentence above
- Done, see above (it is somewhere up there, you'll find it) LunaEatsTuna (talk) 13:54, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Geography and solar time[edit]

"which is only observed to make travelling and communication between the Nordics and Russia easier" is duplicated from above and would also need sourcing
Done LunaEatsTuna (talk) 16:31, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Maintenance[edit]

ok

Notation[edit]

ok

IANA time zone database[edit]

Data for Finland directly from zone.tab of the IANA time zone database; columns marked with * are the columns from zone.tab itself:[35] - not wild about this sentnece for two reasons, one it seems to lack a word eg "comes directly"? and two I'd rather the semi-colon is a full stop for readability.
- Changed to The table below displays data taken directly from zone.tab of the IANA time zone database. Columns marked with * are the columns from zone.tab itself:, does this seem better? LunaEatsTuna (talk) 16:31, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  - great! Mujinga (talk) 07:49, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References[edit]

ok

Notes[edit]

ok

Bibliography[edit]

ok

Overall[edit]

Is there a tempate you are following here? Or a previous GA I didn't spot? I am just wondering about it because Maintenance / Notation / IANA time zone database are all rather small sections and could perhaps be merged into others

@Mujinga: Thank you so much for your comments and for showcasing an interest in my GA nom! To answer your question, time zone articles (including primary topics) are sadly largely underdeveloped on the EN wiki, and no time in [country] article has yet to achieve GA status, so when creating this article I based the sections off of other time in [country] articles I had seen and chose the sections which I thought made the most sense. I chose "Maintenance" since it had good sourcing and seemed relevant enough, "Notation" as it had its own separate article, and "IANA time zone database" from basing it off other time in [country] articles (for example, Time in the United Kingdom, Time in Norway etc.). LunaEatsTuna (talk) 16:31, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- I reckon I may be able to expand the "Maintenance" section by perhaps renaming it to something like "Authority"(?) and mentioning the authority that the Helsinki University Observatory holds on Finland's time zone. LunaEatsTuna (talk) 16:34, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  - On the first point that's great you are expanding wikipedia articles on time in countries in 'Time in X' form, I am engaged in a somewhat related project to create articles about 'Squatting in X' and so I'm interested in thinking about how to create standards across articles without making them all rigidly the same, if that makes sense. I see the logic you have behind the sections and perhaps sometimes they would be larger for other countries. On the second point, sounds good if you want to add another sentence on Helsinki University Observatory, Authority sounds alright although Maintenance also works, I could suggest Implementation as well Mujinga (talk) 07:54, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.