Talk:Thunderbolt Fantasy

Japanese Romanization

Hi everyone, I think we need to come to a consensus of which Japanese romanization system to use, because as it current stands, the page has a mix of Hepburn and Kunrei-shiki. I'm personally more familiar with Hepburn.

Bluesigil (talk) 21:51, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

I agree with using Hepburn as well. English doesn't take well to some Romanizations, especially "You/you". Hepburn is also less cluttered, I think.

Hweirdo (talk) 20:58, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

Nian Bai and Skills

Do we want to include the soliloquies in the character descs? And should we translate skill names? (Use the first episode for reference)

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I vote "Yes" for both soliloquy and skill names. Since Crunchyroll (if the eng sub that I'm watching serves me correctly, it should be the Crunchyroll version) doesn't translate all characters' soliloquies, it would be beneficial to have them listed here. Shuniya (talk) 08:15, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

I'd love to add the skill names! I might need help with the descriptions though. If everyone is okay with it, I'll get started on it. :D Yes too on the soliloquies, since I love them. However, I think the soliloquies should have their own section Bluesigil (talk) 20:45, 7 August 2016 (UTC).

Juǎn Cán Yún (捲殘雲)

Soliloquy: 人笑良圖若華胥，吾志凌雲意堅行。不與浮榮競朝夕，無憾黃沙染身時。

So this soliloquy I think is probably the most complex one we gotten, other than Dān Fěi's. I think this whole first sentence 人笑良圖若華胥，吾志凌雲意堅行。 can be read in two ways. The first reading would be about his immaturity and noble ideals, as Shuniya translated. However, looking at it another way, you can read that it is about people mocking his well-thought out plan as just a dream. This would fit with a possible reading of the second half of the sentence. Shuniya translated it as him having great determination, but 壮志凌云 could also be what he is referring to since you may notice that each line is only seven characters long. Thus we have a dilemma in how to properly translate this complicated sentence, as there seem to be two meanings. Discuss~

Hweirdo (talk) 06:23, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

I firmly believed the first half of his sentence is "immaturity and noble ideals" without fail. As I explained to Bluesigil in the history comment, 華胥 is a noun referring to the ancestor to all Chinese race according to Chinese mythology (Chinese Wiki page has it.) Therefore, 若華胥 stands for "an inexperienced Chinese kid." As for the second half of the first sentence, it's actually not 壯志, but "吾志," meaning "my will/determination." that boils down to the phrase "凌雲," which is an adjective describing how determined his will is, "as high as the soaring clouds." I think Blusigil did a great job on that. "意堅行" is his determination on proceeding his will. Hweirdo changed the last part of the last sentence referring "dust" in a straight manner, but in Chinese poetry in general, 黃沙 would always refer "death" given the right context. So, "黃沙染身" in literal terms is "covered in dust", yes, but in this soliloquy, it refers "the time when he lies on the ground covered in dust (= death.)" To be honest, I don't believe this soliloquy is as complicated as people think. Shuniya (talk) 07:49, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

Heyo! My 2 cents.

- 華胥 foremostly refers to a country/civilization in Chinese myth (see http://www.zdic.net/c/e/1d/45728.htm, the Chinese wiki page states it clearly as well). It is also used in literary terms as a metaphor for dreams. An example would be the idiom, "一夢華胥". You are right, it is a person too, but the key here is the fact that 華胥 refers to something in myth. So here, 人笑良圖若華胥 basically means that people are laughing and mocking him for his ideals because they feel such ideals are as unrealistic, naive and silly as believing in the existence of something from myth - essentially a good old, "you are dreaming, buddy". This is why I translated as, "People may ridicule my noble ideals as nothing but fantasy". Obviously Juan continues on saying he doesn't care because he rather live as a person of strong convictions and of no regrets.

-I think I would change the word "competing" in "I will not regret not competing for fleeting glory" to something like chase instead, because I think the word "compete" shouldn't be taken literally. 不與浮榮競朝夕 lit. means to not compete for time (朝夕 lit. means 從早到晚、時時刻刻, so time) with fame and fortune. So really he is saying he would rather not spend the rest of his time/days to chase or pursue fame and fortune.

- Regarding "bite the dust", I thought it was a well known phrase which means to die?? Which is pretty much "黃沙染身" refers to. But I agree it was it's very informal and might not be poetic enough for the soliloquy.

Bluesigil (talk) 23:40, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

This means we're all pretty much on the same page as to his soliloquy's overall meaning, it's only the matter of what phrases should we head for and fix up the soliloquy as a whole once our consensus has been made. Should we break up each phrases and vote? (lol.)

I'll jot the keywords down and place further editorial opinions:

華胥 (via TW Wiki)--Noun as in Person/Goddess, Country, or Metaphor for Fantasy/Dreams. <--I'm still concerned, because he uses 「若 (young/youth/as if)」before 華胥. Not「夢 (dream/fantasy)」華胥. Granted the 「若」 can stand as "youth" or "as if", but the key point is that the phrase isn't used with 「夢」, so to my interpretation, the "dream/fantasy" aspect has dropped down a good couple of percentage for me to not consider that meaning. It still makes sense for me to interpret as "young/inexperienced Chinese kid." But of course, you guys all have great points, and I'm all for consensus. So I am more than willing to give in if we can somehow add both meanings to the 若華胥 and treat it as a copula of some sort. Something along the lines: "ridicule his immaturity who has too much grand ideals/dreams?"

黃沙染身: Chinese metaphor for "Death", English phrase "Bite the dust." <-- To be honest, I'm sorry to say that the English phrase didn't came through me (probably because I'm out of the states for too long, language decline?!), and I agree it's too informal. I would vote for the phrases that are easier to understand the better. Something related to "Fall to grave" would still be my pick. (It's so cool and poetic, why not use it?!)

不與浮榮競朝夕: "Not waste time competing for wealth and fame" <--I would agree if it's written along the lines as this.

吾志凌雲意堅行: 凌雲 (according to 壯志凌雲 as Hweirdo listed：直上雲霄。形容理想巨集偉遠大。) Another thing: "Clouds," we have to mention "Clouds!" It's part of Juǎn's name, how can we not incorporate his name? So something along the lines like this shouldn't be a problem: "My will is as high as the soaring clouds, and I'm determined to fulfill it."

Shuniya (talk) 05:55, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

I see where the conflict is coming from now. The culprit is totally the 若. haha.

In my opinion 若 means "like" (如同,像) and not "young". So to me it reads 人笑良圖如華胥. Therefore you can translate it as something along the lines of: People (may) laugh that (my) ideals are unrealistic, are nothing but dreams/fantasies, are impractical etc, etc. And maybe my example was not the best, but you do not need to use the word "夢" in combination with 華胥 for it to mean dream/fantasy. In a literary sense, 華胥 in itself has become to mean dream/fantasy and it's the most common way to use the word. To keep it simple, this was taken from the page you linked: "黃帝夢入華胥仙國。該國百姓聽任自然，甚為自得。后遂用「華胥夢、夢華胥、華胥路、華胥境、華胥國、華胥事、華胥、夢華」等指夢境、仙境，或指無所管束的理想境地。". Yes, some uses "夢" in combination, but many of the above examples also don't, yet they all mean the same thing. The same page lists examples of how 華胥 has been used to refer to dream in many Chinese traditional poetry and texts. I've also rarely seen it used to mean a Chinese person specifically, but if it is used, it is used as reference to the Chinese as a culture/civilization. Therefore, to me it wouldn't make sense to for Juan to say people laugh at him for being a young or immature Chinese in the context of it being a culture/civilization. Even when they are referring to 華胥氏, they are referring to the goddess herself, not her descendants. Also, if the writers wanted to convey the idea of an "immature youth", there are a plethora of terms to use for the poem. There's really no need to use 華胥 which, I would assume, is generally not the term which springs to mind to the general public, and has a very rich literary history of meaning something else. It makes the most sense when taking into context with Juan's conflict with his brother in the show. Shou has been looking down on Juan, viewing Juan's ideals as unrealistic and fanciful. He has been attempting to get Juan to see that the real world doesn't operate under Juan's romanticized ideals, because in Shou's mind, there are no heroes. Heroes are only heroes because they were the ones who used others as stepping stones. That being said, honestly, I think your view is actually very similar to mine. I get what you mean by immature, and the word I believe would be better suited is actually naive. I think the main difference here is, I'm arguing that Juan is being mocked as naive as a result of his views being seen as unrealistic fantasies. The naivete comes because of the perception that Juan's ideals are silly dreams. Does this make more sense? XD

不與浮榮競朝夕: "Not waste time competing for wealth and fame" - I'm going to be seen as overly picky here. (I'm so sorry! >.<"). But the reason why I don't like the way the word compete is used right now is because by writing it the way it is, it is saying that Juan is not competing with someone/others for wealth and fame. But the original line is saying that Juan does not want to compete with wealth and fame for time, meaning he doesn't to spend his time bothering with wealth and fame any longer. Again, I just want explain my reasoning. It's personally not a deal breaker if the line is kept the way it is. Just that the original meaning is not so much Juan is "competing" for anything, but really that he no longer wants to spend the rest of his days acquiring it.

Phew! I'm so sorry this got so long.

Bluesigil (talk) 01:25, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

Good job toughing out the long paragraphs, Blu-chan, you're an awesome warrior xD

Yeah, Blu-chan. We're all on the same track, and we know how Juan's personality is. It's really only the matter of phrasing. (Dang you, 「若」! )

Yes, I'm on the same page as you, Blu! I'm cool with 夢胥 being ideals/fantasy, the Japanese official translation had phrasings along those lines anyway. It's that 「若」which I have conflicts with, since I loved how they incorporated his brashness as a budding young man who's yet to mature, to his over-the-top expectations on what being a true hero is like. If you just mention how his ideals are just silly, I felt like in literal sense, something's missing from the equation. I would like to see the literal concept of " youthness" be incorporated somehow, as in "Silly 'boy', idealism is for 'kids!'" Basically, I like that freakin' 「若」being "youth," since it adds to Juan's character. I like your thought process of incorporating the word "naive" to the ideal/fantasy context to make 「若」 have both meanings of "like/immaturity," it'll make a satisfied consensus on my end, as long as all qualities of Juan successfully comes through his soliloquy.

Shuniya (talk) 03:21, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

How about we just incorporate naive into the soliloquy? Instead of using "noble ideals," we can call it "naïve ideals" and that would work perfectly. An "ideal" is already 良 after all. Here's the other thing I wasn't sure about: is the second half talking about his determination being as high as the clouds, or him reaching his soaring aspirations using his determination? You can't always include the literal word "cloud," but you can use the imagery.

I agree with Blue on 不與浮榮競朝夕 since it shouldn't be taken so literally. Chasing is definitely the better verb to use. For the second half, about the 黄沙染身時 I don't think it is wrong to translate it literally, since literally it is just as poetic and has the same meaning as death in English, usually seen in poetry (proof: Searching in Shadows and Sunshine). However, we could just use an English idiom instead (this wiki page, for instance lists all of them, but we only want the literary and neutral ones), like "even as I breathe my last (breath)" or "even as I shuffle off this mortal coil."

Hweirdo (talk) 04:56, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

不與浮榮競朝夕-- I didn't say I like them being taken literally, I said something along that line (of thought) is good either way. Whatever you guys felt is better I'm all for it.

黃沙染身時-- Literal, neutral, formal, as long as most people could get that it's an expression for death and it sounds poetic and badass at the same time, I'll have no complaints.

凌雲-- cloud related imagerys to describe the depth of his will is okay, doesn't need to be literal, but it does take away from his meaningful name, so I would stick with adjectives that are related to the sky. And that he is "determined to proceed that will" (意堅行）however you write that.

Checked your edit, Hweirdo. I liked your current draft better than your previous one. Is there a stronger word for aspiration? I'm concerned the sentence might dilute the word's strength.

Shuniya (talk) 05:38, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

I think the trans is getting better in shape, great working there, Hweirdo. The last line is a bit long to my opinion, overall speaking. What do you think,Blusigil? (Can't just have only my opinion, right?

Shuniya (talk) 14:25, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

Hey guys, so sorry I haven't replied until now. Did not really get a chance to come here until today. I'm totally fine the way the poem is now. I'm not sure if tweaking "People may ridicule my noble ideals as fantasy and naïve" to "People may ridicule my ideals as naive fantasies" would be better and more direct. What do you think? Other than that, good job guys! :)

Bluesigil (talk) 23:40, 2 October 2016 (UTC)

I had "People may ridicule my noble ideals as naive fantasies" but I thought it didn't convey the same meaning so I changed it. Either way is fine. By the way, should we make another section for Shang's soliloquy?

Hweirdo (talk) 06:42, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

Character Names Discussion

Alright warriors, we currently have a heated debate on 2 roles with English translation issues:

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1) Dān Fěi (丹翡): Does her given name stand for the mineral, "Jadeite," or the bird, "Kingfisher?"

(Proposal-A) Fěi (翡) as a stand-alone character in literal terms meant a form of jade. Her sword on the other hand, bares the name Cuì (翠), which is the color "emerald green". Merging the swordswoman with her sword to become one, they stand as the jewel, "Emerald". Regardless of region, the meaning of "Emerald" would be the first thing on the general audiences' mind when they see her name for the first time.

(Proposal-B) "Kingfisher" in Chinese translation is named, Cuì Niǎo(翠鳥) meaning emerald green bird. Merging the swordswoman with her sword to become one, they stand as the bird Kingfisher in general, but the down side of this proposal is that Dān Fěi is named from the male bird instead of the female.

from Hweirdo

"Dān Fěi has a costume very reminiscent of the bird, therefore I think we ought to translate it as "kingfisher. And look at this sword! Tell me it doesn't look like a bird. ""

from Bluesigil

"I've always thought 翡 referred to the male Kingfigher and 翠 was the female 「雄赤曰翡,雌青曰翠」(The Red colored male is called Fěi, the emerald-green female Cuì.) . Honestly both names are really nice, and there's nothing wrong with both. Unless it is clearly stated, Kingfisher or Jade, I think it's only the matter of preference and interpretation."

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2) Juǎn Cán Yún (捲殘雲): Does his name bare more of a Middle Chinese (as in the old Chinese language) saying, or is it just the literal "To Furl Scattered Clouds?"

(Proposal-A)

from Hweirdo

"I looked at Middle Chinese, or 古通中文, for inspiration. "捲(quán): 古通“拳”，拳头 (applicable as "fist")。" Besides, his name makes no sense in English if you think about it. 云（雲） is also used as a particle in 文言, so I think his name makes the most sense as "Fists of Destruction" though we can talk about it."

(Proposal-B)

from me

I personally believe the naming process isn't that complicated to begin with, the whole purpose of this project is to introduce the international audience about this Taiwanese Puppetry art form. First, we have the Japanese demographic to cater to, just the traditional Chinese character/kanji system of all character names are driving them nuts already, it would be unwise for Urobuchi to name his characters something that deep. Then second, our Mr. Juǎn is a spear wielder, it would be awkward to have him named after the fist. By Pili Co.'s standard, they would never allow this to happen unless Juǎn's soliloquy states it.

from Bluesigil

"I have to agree with Shuniya, I think it's too assumptive to assume they were using 古通中文 definitions. I don't think the general public will know that 捲 was used as 拳. I also think the usage of 云/雲 is also supposed to parallel his brother's 云/雲, so I don't think it's used as a particle. "

RESOLVED (2016-08-05)

Proposal B is what we are going with.

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Shuniya (talk) 07:50, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

So what does everyone think?

Hweirdo (talk) 05:41, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

Roles with issues are all up I guess, feel free to add whatever I missed, thanks guys. Shuniya (talk) 04:58, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

I feel at this point that 捲殘雲 is pretty literal, so I'm taking that off. I also added another section. Hweirdo (talk) 00:06, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

Added section about 捲殘雲's soliloquy. Hweirdo (talk) 06:27, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

thunderbolt music doll sets value? 2010 figurine.

I have two boxes of thunderbolt music dolls from 2010 in box sets one has four dolls one has three dollars they have bases and play music. The boxes have never been opened. I cannot seem to find these anywhere online I do not know the value of them. 2601:601:8500:91E0:79AD:1384:67A5:58BE (talk) 20:35, 26 November 2022 (UTC)