Talk:Thomas Wilson (bishop)

REFS

Yes, I figured it out and edit conflicted with you on the repair. -- SECisek 19:29, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Tone

Some fo the more flowery language could do with trimming, and the current ODNB rather than the original DNB fills in some points rather better. Not sure I'll have time to do this myself, and I don't know if anyone else on the project has ready access to the ODNB (although all UK library members should be able to get access via their libarry's subscription - check your council website). David Underdown 08:41, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I've snagged the ONDB entry & will have have a go at amending our article in light of whatever it has to say - but I'll be doing it offline, on a train, with a view to updating this page late tonight. --Tagishsimon (talk) 15:29, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Okay, done a first pass, but there's much more to do. --Tagishsimon (talk) 21:41, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Additional source

I've just remembered, when noticing that this had been put up for GA, that there's another potential source - both for this chap, and many more http://www.theclergydatabase.org.uk/index.html - it aims to list all CofE (including Wales) clergy between 1540 and 1835. The dating of individuals in the list takes a bit of getting used to, this Wilson is listed as Thomas Wilson (1725-1739) in one part of the database, but is also separately listed as Bishop of Sodor and Man, complete with a list of all appointments he made as bishop. There is also a history of the diocese, which could be used as an alternative source for some of the points in this article, as the GA reviewer may not be happy with the reliance on the (O)DNB. David Underdown 09:42, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Two or three of the PDFs in external links have biographies of the great man, and I understand his Sacra Privata, also linked, has useful data. So there are more places we could go. I've not found Keble's Life online, just his Works, which is a shame - although I've not looked into the Works - perhaps the Life is in there? I kinda hope, though, that these things would be the difference between GA and FA ... certainly the (O)DNB articles are themselves well enough sourced that we should be able to rely on them. --Tagishsimon (talk) 12:40, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

This should be able to make it through GA more or less as is. It WOULD need work for FA. -- SECisek 07:18, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Further reading

I originally added the references that now appear under the heading of "Further Reading" when this article was at a much more primitive stage. Much more comprehensive links to Wilson's own works are now included below (under the External Links heading) and I am not sure that the reference to Callow's general work is necessarily worth keeping (though it is a source for Wilson's conversation with Queen Caroline). So perhaps this section could be deleted?

45ossington 08:46, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I have now acted on this suggestion.

45ossington 08:19, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Richard Sherlock

Does this perhaps help with Richard Sherlock's status?

[1]

45ossington 19:09, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Not sure. The ODNB says "Although his father, William Sherlock, a small yeoman, died while he was young". The Forebears of Bishop Wilson article suggests he "is the youngest son of John Sherlock and Cicely (nee Fells)". ODNB presumably rests on T. Wilson, ‘Life of Dr Sherlock’, in R. Sherlock, Practical Christian, ed. H. H. Sherlock (1841). Or not. Google books has Practical Christian and there's a lengthy footnote which amounts to "we're not sure of his parentage". --Tagishsimon (talk) 22:29, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I've added a Richard Sherlock (cleryman) article and addressed the forebears assertion in it. --Tagishsimon (talk) 12:11, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Well done! Half way to GA there already! -- SECisek 12:20, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

GA Review

GA review (see here for criteria)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

Comments:

1. The picture in the infobox needs a caption to place in context. For example, where did it come from? Was it contemporary? The James Oglethorpe picture could use a better caption as well, along the lines of "James Oglethorpe, picture here in..." etc.
2. The lead needs to conform to WP:LEAD. Specifically, direct quotes are to be avoided whenever possible in the lead. Furthermore, it does not adequately summarize all the major points in the article. Every heading should have at least one sentence written about it in the lead, if not more.
3. All one-two sentence paragraphs should be either expanded or merged, as they cannot stand alone.
4. The lead says that he died at age 93 but, from the dates provided, I only get 91 years old.
5. Is saying "He graduated B.A./M.A." and acceptable way of saying "he graduated with a B.A./M.A." I speak Canadian English, but maybe it's a British only thing.
6. "Derby had previously offered the position to Wilson who had 'modestly declined'." (Preferment) Since this is a direct quote, it requires a citation immediately following it. Same with "He soon became 'a very energetic planter' of fruit and forest trees, turning 'the bare slopes' into 'a richly wooded glen'" (Work in the Isle of Man (1687-1749))
7. "On 6 April he landed at Derbyhaven in the Isle of Man and was installed on 11 April in the ruins of St. German's Cathedral, within Peel Castle at Peel, and at once took up his residence at Bishop's Court, Kirk Michael." (Work in the Isle of Man (1687-1749)) This sentence is incredibly run-on, it should be split into two.
8. The second paragraph of "Work in the Isle of Man (1687-1749)" needs some significant work, as it is very difficult to figure out what's going on. The paragraph jumps from idea to idea without proper transitions and the tone is much more suited for a biography, rather than an encyclopedia. It definitely needs work.
9. "Restoration of ecclesiastical discipline" needs a rewrite as well, it sounds like it was pulled directly from a biography and is certainly not written in an encyclopedic and neutral fashion. One example of many: "The restoration of ecclesiastical discipline on the island was, from the first, an object which Wilson had at heart."

From this point on, it doesn't get much better. The "Civil and ecclesiastical conflict" section only has a few problems (other than a need for a significant copy edit), and is more in the style that I've been used to seeing in the last few religious figures articles that I've read. "Toleration and wider interests," while seemingly verifiable, is far more POV than it needs to be for an encyclopedic treatment of the article, especially the first paragraph. The "Legacy" section is absolutely not POV. I can't every imagine an encyclopedia writing anything remotely near "Wilson's rare unselfishness gives lustre to a life of fearless devotion to duty and wise and thrifty beneficence" or much of what follows either. Overall, I think that this article would benefit from time spent carefully revising the text, removing the flowerly and POV language that seems to be drawn directly from the sources, and trying to summarize the sources with an encyclopedic focus and manner. The very fact that everything is taken from only two sources is very worrisome in and of itself. I also suggest that, after finishing this, that a fresh set of eyes reads over it for neutrality. For these reasons, I am failing the article as it stands. If you believe that this review is in error, you may take it to WP:GAR. Thank you for your work thus far. Cheers, CP 05:58, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

fixed the point of "modestly declined" requiring a cite. The rest will take longer, in some cases it may be possible to dilute some of the problems by make it clear that some the of the language is a direct quote from the (O)DNB. David Underdown 12:09, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I should like to say for the record that CP's rare unselfishness resulted in a lustrous GA review of fearless devotion to duty and wise and thrifty beneficence; oh yes :) --Tagishsimon (talk) 12:21, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, let's get to it then. -- SECisek 21:38, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Picture

The picture of the church in Malew is very attractive, but does it have any closer connection to Wilson than its status as a church in the Isle of Man? What about a picture of St German's Cathedral in Peel Castle? (See copyright image at http://www.manxscenes.com/Aug%2003/St_Germans.htm.) Or how about a picture of the bishop's palace (alas no longer) at Bishopscourt? I'm afraid that this suggestion is not as helpful as it might be, as I have neither a camera nor any idea how to upload pictures. But if someone else does... -45ossington (talk) 08:54, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

You're right that it (probably) has little connection to TW. As soon as we can get better images, it'll go. I agree St German's Cathedral in Peel Castle would be most appropriate. I've not seen a suitable PD image. --Tagishsimon (talk) 10:42, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

The illustration of TW is taken from the frontispiece of Miscellanies: being a selection from the poems and correspondence... (at Google Books) but that book is about a completely different Thomas Wilson, born 3 December 1747 (see p. iv) and died 3 March 1813 (p. lxxii). It's not the Bishop of Sodor and Man at all. 98.234.184.166 (talk) 09:51, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Okay; apologies for that. Now withdrawn. --Tagishsimon (talk) 11:37, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Clarifications

SECisek asked me to look over the article. I've added a few additional citations and was going to rework some of the prose but hit an edit conflict. The following are things I'm not sure how to do, and need the hand of someone more conversant with the sources. I really don't have anything on this time frame, sorry.

• In the Early Life section, Sherlock supervised Thomas' training in what? It's unclear from the context. And what sort of breakdown occured in the 17th century that the 7th earl wanted to fix?
• In the Early life section, being a Yank, I'm not sure what being elected a scholar at Trinity entails.
• In the third paragraph the Early Life section, who is Stowall and why is his view important? THe last sentence of that paragraph is very rough, but not knowing the sources, I'm not sure how to reword it.
• What was his MA in? I'd assume theology but that's a detail that would be interesting.
• In the Work on the Isle of Man section, the bit about libraries and the Manx language is very strained, but again, not knowing the sources, I am hesitant to reword it to flow better. It's the "This led to provision in the Manx language for the needs of his people." sentence that's the trouble, I think.
• In the Work on the Isle of Man section, this sentence "He freely issued occasional orders for special services, with new prayers, the Uniformity Act not specifying the Isle of Man." is totally lacking in context for anyone not clued into Later Stuart politics. And it flows badly with the previous sentence.
• In Land tenancy issues ... this sentence "Wilson was centrally involved in another needed improvement to the island than the construction of libraries and chapels and the dissemination of contemporary farming methods." is .. ugh. We haven't heard anything about the dissemination of farming methods yet, just the libraries. So it is jarring.
• The whole Restoration of ecclesiastical discipline section reads like it was lifted from the old DNB. Nothing wrong with using it as a base, but it's distinctly old fashioned in how it reads. "Uncouth" is a bit POV.
• In the civil and ecclesiastical conflict section, the phrase "but the fines were paid through Thomas Corlett" is unclear. Does that mean Thomas paid the fines? Or what?
• In that same section, the paragraph that starts "Horne was replaced.." is Floyd the new governor's last name or first? He should be introduced with his full name at first.
• wikilink to House of Keys? Is there such an article? Same with Sumner-general.
• sedulous is probably a word that will go over most readers heads.

One thing I noticed is that the article assumes a great deal of knowledge about the people wikilinked to. It doesn't hurt to describe the people a bit even if they are wikilinked. So a quick phrase descriging Zinzendorf would make the later mention of the Moravian church more understandable. Overall the thing I noticed most was the dense prose that really shows it came from a late Victorian source. Hope this helps Ealdgyth | Talk 17:36, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Yup, that's very good stuff, very useful; thanks. SECisek or I or someone else will be along shortly to try to dispatch each of the criticisms you've made. --Tagishsimon (talk) 10:34, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

One of the peculiarities of MAs at Oxford, Cambridge and TCD is that they are not really "for" anything. You take your first degree and a few years later you are magically eligible for your MA, provided you haven't done anything that would have got you rusticated (suspended) whilst you were actually at college. I've added a link that gives more context, and chgned the wording a bit, possibly it could with a little more explanation in this article. David Underdown (talk) 20:10, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Thomas Wilson (bishop)/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Needs citation, clean up. Could easily be GA. -- SECisek 19:03, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Last edited at 19:03, 17 October 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 08:40, 30 April 2016 (UTC)