Talk:Thieves' cant

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 25 August 2020 and 12 December 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Liam EDU.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 11:17, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

What is "gul-groping"?

Does anyone know what this term means? It has appeared in the article since the 18th of December, 2005, as part of the edit by GBH that established the body of the current article. Supposedly, it is an example of criminal activity, but there is no Wiki article on it, and a Google search only links back to this article. If no one can find a prior usage for this term, I think we ought to remove it. Jeremy.Sanders 02:23, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Judges's glossary gives "gull-groper - money-lender in alliance with cheats". Thomas Dekker in "Lantern and Candlelight" (1608) Chapter III (Judges pp.323-9) is headed "Gull-Groping - How gentlemen are cheated at ordinaries", [public eating houses]. He describes the technique of lending money to an innocent young country gentleman come to London who are on a losing streak, to encourage him to continue gambling, getting him to sign a legal document that disadvantages the "gull" so he ends up paying back much more than he borrowed. In this chapter Dekker uses an extended theme of birds for characters, but "gull" is a general canting term for a fool, or at least a naive person, I believe broadly similar to "mark" in modern US usage, though perhaps less specific.GBH 14:08, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Good enough for me. Thanks. Jeremy.Sanders 21:47, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

I am going to change it to "gull-groping", with two l's. That is how it is cited in your glossary, and it turns up in a Google search.Jeremy.Sanders 01:38, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Why there are no examples

This is an encyclodedia not a dictionary. I thought about including examples but once you put some words in how to you select what to leave out. There are copyright problems reproducing lists. The article therefore has links to several online dictionaries of cant. The only important on missing is Thomas Harman's but it's not online, (might be on EEBO for subscribers) it's still in copyright.GBH 12:23, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

And it was called?

Article not helpful

I browsed on this article wanting to know more, and while there is a somewhat detailed history of the term, I'm left not knowing any more than what I started with. It would be nice to have examples of this 'language', rather than just origins of the language. After reading the article, I still don't know what kind of language might be considered Thieves' Cant. I suggest examples are provided and more notability claims. Otherwise this article does not seem particuarly useful. Cєlαя∂σяє^Talk 21:52, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Proposed Examples

I went through http://php.iupui.edu/~asimmon/thief.html and picked out some of the terms that were most familiar to me:

• fence: to sell stolen goods
• footpad: a common thief
• hoodwink: to blindfold or fool someone
• jail bird: prisoner
• lift: to steal
• nab: to seize
• pig: police officer
• rat: an informer; to inform on someone
• sham: a trick
• sneak: a pilferer
• turncoat: one who has betrayed his friends
• twig: realize that something is up
• varlets: criminals

Assuming the page is accurate and these meanings did originate as theives' cant, these would probably be good to use as examples on the page, since at least a few are recognizable today. --Sopoforic 00:32, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I tink this illustrates very clearly the problem of including samples in the article. The web page is headed Theives Cant, but it then says is is based on the "Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue. A Dictionary of Buckish Slang, University Wit and Pickpocket Eloquence." Printed for C. Chappel of Pall-Mall, London in 1811, and based on the dictionary compiled by Captain Grose in 1785. Unfortunately it isn't very accurate. Many of the entries may be slang in the wider sense, used by criminals, but they are not Theives Cant, which is a specific term refering to a limited historical period. To take a few examples; nab is cant, but also implies dishonesty. Lift and varlet are contemporary with but are not cant, simply different applications of words in common usage, (possibly not even slang). Twig is slang, possibly cant, but the earliest usage in a theiving context is to knock off or detach, not to realise. Most of the other words are not cant at all, and most of them are from a later period generally. Soe are just plain wrong. Pig is a term of abuse which can be traced back to 1546 but the first use specific to Police in OED is 1811 and it was wasn't in common usage in that form until the 1970's. Rat is used to mean to change sides or inform, but not in a criminal context until the twentieth century, (I'm sure James Cagney had much to with that, whether he actually said the famous phrase or not). Most of the other words I would say are from the late seventeenth century onwards. Some may have earlier orgins, like hoodwink as a term in falconry, but not as cant. GBHGBH 13:15, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Going to continue this on GBH's talk page. --Sopoforic 23:27, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

This needs examples - it's really strange without them. Secretlondon 16:05, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

References and examples

I've added a {{refimprove}} to this. I intend to hit the books and provide some in the next few days; the tag may encourage others to do likewise. I agree that some examples would be good, but think it should be a small list (say a dozen examples). Paul Tracy_|\talk 19:09, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Almost all of my contributions are sourced from the "sources" I provided.

For examples of cant from Harman see Thomas Harman. I don't think it is helpful to include examples here as the vocabulary is time specific, and would become very long. The article gives references to two dictionaries for those interested. GBH 06:38, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Cant in Planetscape

I have removed this on the grounds that there seems to be basis for any of the alleged connections; they cannot be similar in linguistic construction as Thieves Cant was a vocabulary not a language and had no construction; it did not characteristically include rhyming slang, nor it rely upon local idiom. The latter two elements might characterise Cockney Rhyming Slang but that's completely different and about 250 years later. GBH (talk) 16:41, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Obsolete?

Radio 4's Word of Mouth (24/11/2009) covered contemporary criminal slang in prison, described as a 'direct successor' to thieves' cant with a naturally up-to-date vocabulary.

• keenya - house
• warbs - police
• shades - prison officers, etc.
  Hakluyt bean (talk) 20:54, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

French pov

François Villon was a french Poet (1431-1463) who wrote some poems using the french Thieves' cant called Jargon. This may help...--Gozor136 (talk) 14:47, 8 January 2012 (UTC) The french link is not exactly on the same subject for it focus on the first printed edition of this "jargon" in France. It is only a first step to connect the different aspect of a Thieves' cant used is Europe around the Saint-Jacques-Compostelle "road" --Gozor136 (talk) 09:27, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Image

The illustration in this article is rather strange. Can some clarity to the reason for its inclusion be added? Huw Powell (talk) 23:35, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

François Villon has some info. Don't know if the image is directly relevant. Just an interim reply. Will look into it a bit more when time permits. RashersTierney (talk) 00:07, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

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"Rogues' cant," listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Rogues' cant,. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Soumyabrata (talk • subpages) 18:00, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

Sources section

The Sources section contradicts itself; first it says Thieves' Cant is not derived from Romani, but then it says that Thieves' Cant is very similar to Welsh Romani in terms of vocabulary. Is Thieves' Cant derived from Romani, or not? Esszet (talk) 02:21, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

That Cant bears similarity to Welsh Romani is not proof that it was derived from that language. "Derived from" is an unambiguous statement of causation - "similarity" is a more flexible statement of their being alike. I see no strong contradiction here. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 18:09, 26 March 2024 (UTC)