Talk:Theodor Weissenberger/GA1

GA Review[edit]

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Reviewer: Peacemaker67 (talk · contribs) 04:39, 31 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Rate	Attribute	Review Comment
1. Well-written:
	1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct.	Prose check LeadY German Luftwaffe military aviator seems a bit tautological. What about "German Luftwaffe pilot"Y this is standard wording on many Luftwaffe articles which have gone to A-class see Joachim Müncheberg. The wording was suggested by Dank, see Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Joachim Müncheberg MisterBee1966 (talk) 09:15, 1 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] I fail to see how Dank's suggestion is better, but OK. suggest with just 33 claims over the Western Front doesn't the word "just" imply interpretation of the data on behalf the editor? MisterBee1966 (talk) 09:07, 1 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] I don't think so, they are both facts. It juxtaposes the proportion of Western Front victories in terms of his overall figure. ~~If you are not comparing them, why even mention it in the lead?~~ What about ",but he also claimed 33 victories over the Western Front"? okay, fine with me, done MisterBee1966 (talk) 08:26, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] suggest identifying where Mühlheim am Main isY augmented MisterBee1966 (talk) 09:15, 1 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] I was thinking Hesse, but ok. Hm, would people who don't know where Mühlheim am Main is know where Hesse is? If someone told me, he comes from Little Rock, I would have no clue where that is. If he then goes on and tells me that Little Rock is in Arkansas, I am just as lost. However, if he told me that Little Rock is in United States, I have a notion of where this might be. MisterBee1966 (talk) 16:16, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] "military" service in the Luftwaffe also seems tautological. Could you serve as a civilian in the Luftwaffe? technically yes but you have a point. I struck the word military from the sentence MisterBee1966 (talk) 16:18, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] I would be dropping the definite article "the" when used with proper names of squadrons etc. This is not a hard and fast rule in English, but generally accepted in military history writing. For example, then posted to Jagdgeschwader 5 is generally accepted as the way to write it, but of ~~the~~ 7. Staffel is better. thanks, I should know this by now. fixed MisterBee1966 (talk) 08:34, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] I would consider dropping the fairly obvious translations and as many abbreviations as possible in the lead, and use them in the body. They interrupt the flow of the prose a lot, and it would be a bit hard for a casual reader to work through when there are so many. You want people to be enthused by the lead and want to read on, not be overwhelmed by the translations and abbreviations. okay, removed most translations, left the ones for the Fighter Wings. This is inline with the Müncheberg article. MisterBee1966 (talk) 08:52, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] suggest of JG 5 which defended against the Allied invasion. much better, thanks, done MisterBee1966 (talk) 08:36, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] suggest ...racing accident on 11 June 1950 at the Nürburgring. done MisterBee1966 (talk) 08:26, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] Early life and careerY suggest a lang template for the first translation in the section Deutscher Luftsportverband done MisterBee1966 (talk) 08:22, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] suggest He joined the ~~military service of the~~ Luftwaffe the rank equivalents being used are unclear. US English is being used, so I assumed USAAF rank equivalents would be used. According to Aircraft of the Luftwaffe, 1935-1945: An Illustrated Guide (2009) p. 75, Feldwebel was equivalent to USAAF Technical Sergeant, Oberfeldwebel to USAAF Master Sergeant. Suggest putting rank equivalents in notes rather than in parentheses, to reduce clutter and improve flow of the prose. Is the table below the Awards section sufficient to address the equivalency of ranks?MisterBee1966 (talk) 08:44, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] I don't think so. Because you (and I) use the "native" rank names, people read them and wonder what the equivalent is at that point. Notes allow them to hover over the note and get the info they want without having to look at the bottom. Of course, the ranks that don't relate to the subject aren't in that table either. There are also still a couple that aren't accurate equivalents (Junior Staff Sergeant and Senior Staff Sergeant). I've found that notes don't interrupt the flow of the prose so much. I'm not insisting on the notes, just that all equivalents are accurate. Okay, I removed them altogether. Notes have to be placed after punctuation marks, if I am not mistaken. I am unsure if this helps the reader much because the note may not be placed where the information may be needed. Articles like Werner Mölders went to FAC without any translations, I guess that this is acceptable? MisterBee1966 (talk) 10:41, 3 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] Okay with me, I'm just suggesting what I think are improvements. Just because something went to FAC doesn't mean it can't be improved. I'm sure you've edited that article since, I certainly continue to improve mine when I can. Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 11:10, 3 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] World War IIY suggest Weissenberger was posted to a front-line unit on 27 August 1941, "Two years later" being explicit in the date. Sorry, I don't understand you suggestion MisterBee1966 (talk) 08:32, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] I've amended what I originally typed, by contention is that the date explicitly means it was "Two years later". Suggest dropping ""Two years later" worth adding that the Continuation War was fighting between the Soviets and the Finns. done MisterBee1966 (talk) 08:32, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] War on the Arctic FrontY worth adding the detail that the I-153 was a biplane fighter done MisterBee1966 (talk) 08:41, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] suggest regarding indiscipline or his lack of discipline. Two mentions of discipline in two sentences is a bit repetitive, you could probably drop the second one with changing meaning. good idea, done MisterBee1966 (talk) 11:13, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] something missing here ... Franzisket on a train busting mission. Also "train busting" is rather informal. reworded MisterBee1966 (talk) 11:17, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] suggest same detail as for the earlier fighter, in this case, a single seater fighter done, I added some wording on first occurence of Bf 110 and Bf 109 to help set the context. MisterBee1966 (talk) 11:14, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] suggest Polyarnoye done MisterBee1966 (talk) 11:20, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] and fifth victories done MisterBee1966 (talk) 10:35, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] redesignated as done MisterBee1966 (talk) 11:20, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] three of which were shot down on on 15 April during two combat missions west of Murmansk. reworded MisterBee1966 (talk) 11:24, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] suggest at Kirkenes for an emergency done MisterBee1966 (talk) 11:26, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] while on a Ju 87 escort mission done MisterBee1966 (talk) 11:28, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] claimed over aircraft of 2... done MisterBee1966 (talk) 11:26, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] suggest adding a comma after In June 1942 done MisterBee1966 (talk) 10:29, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] was renamed as 13.(Z) done MisterBee1966 (talk) 10:29, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] typo Weisesenberger done MisterBee1966 (talk) 10:27, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] per WP:NUMERAL suggest 23 aerial victories in addition to 15 locomotives, 2 flak installations done MisterBee1966 (talk) 10:27, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] Knight's Cross of the Iron CrossY suggest At the time, 6. Staffel was based in Petsamo near Murmansk. done MisterBee1966 (talk) 11:32, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] suggest on his first Bf 109 combat mission... done MisterBee1966 (talk) 11:32, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] suggest after he had spent a few days familiarizing himself with the single engine fighter aircraft. done MisterBee1966 (talk) 11:11, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] link Lend-Lease done MisterBee1966 (talk) 10:32, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] These were his first victories claimed on the Bf 109 done MisterBee1966 (talk) 12:02, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] During this mission, he claimed his 26th to 28th aerial victories, done MisterBee1966 (talk) 12:02, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] when did his Staffel convert to Fw190's? It sort of comes out of the blue. the source does not speak of a conversion. It reads more like this was an exception that he used the Fw 190. MisterBee1966 (talk) 12:02, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] suggest (mountain infantry) done MisterBee1966 (talk) 10:36, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] suggest He returned to combat on 30 October 1942, and during two combat missions again achieved "ace in a day" status. done MisterBee1966 (talk) 12:05, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] 38 aerial victories and he was honored done MisterBee1966 (talk) 12:05, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] "winter break" begs the question, how long did they not fly in the northern winter? source only speaks of a winter break. I can't promise at this point to get more specific here. MisterBee1966 (talk) 12:05, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] 33 further victories ~~in from~~ between 6–28 March 1943 done MisterBee1966 (talk) 12:05, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] suggest victories 43 to 48 on 10 March, victories 49 to 53 on 12 March, and numbers 54 to 57 on 13 March. done MisterBee1966 (talk) 12:09, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] A ground attack mission against the airfield at Salmiyarvi on 28 March was his last action of the month. done MisterBee1966 (talk) 12:09, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] suggest anti-aircraft fire done MisterBee1966 (talk) 12:09, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] suggest On 13 April 1943, a flight of five aircraft from 6. Staffel claimed 18 Soviet aircraft destroyed without loss. Six of the enemy aircraft were credited to Weissenberger, shot down between 17:05 and 17:16. done MisterBee1966 (talk) 12:17, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] On 13 May, he claimed four P-39 destroyed, representing victories 83 to 86, and he was promoted to Oberleutnant on 1 June 1943. done MisterBee1966 (talk) 12:17, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] Oak Leaves to the Knight's CrossY suggest Weissenberger claimed another five done MisterBee1966 (talk) 11:29, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] suggest In the period 15 June to 4 July, 7. Staffel claimed 122 aerial victories under his leadership. done MisterBee1966 (talk) 14:18, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] suggest his Staffel claimed 13 victories done MisterBee1966 (talk) 14:18, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] suggest A day later, he again claimed three aircraft shot down, comprising victories 95 to 97. done MisterBee1966 (talk) 14:18, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] suggest On 4 July 1943, Weissenberger led 7. Staffel to 16 aerial victories, while providing fighter cover for a departing German naval task force. done MisterBee1966 (talk) 14:22, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] suggest First, Weissenberger claimed a Pe-2 reconnaissance aircraft shot down at 21:07. done MisterBee1966 (talk) 14:22, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] suggest On 10 July 1943, this achievement earned him his first mention in the Wehrmachtbericht, an information bulletin issued by the headquarters of the Wehrmacht. done MisterBee1966 (talk) 14:22, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] suggest He achieved "ace in a day" status for fourth time on 25 July 1943, claiming aerial victories numbers 108 to 112. done MisterBee1966 (talk) 14:32, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] suggest Following his 112th victory, he was awarded the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Oak Leaves (Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes mit Eichenlaub) on 2 August 1943, the 266th member of the Wehrmacht to be so honored. done MisterBee1966 (talk) 14:32, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] I think the identification of what number the Oak Leaves were for the others is really unnecessary detail for a bio article on Weissenberger. Suggest Five other Luftwaffe officers were presented with awards that day by Hitler, Hauptmann Egmont Prinz zur Lippe-Weißenfeld, Hauptmann Manfred Meurer, Hauptmann Heinrich Ehrler, Oberleutnant Joachim Kirschner, and Hauptmann Werner Schröer were also awarded the Oak Leaves, and Major (Major) Helmut Lent received the Swords to his Knight’s Cross with Oak Leaves. done MisterBee1966 (talk) 14:32, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] suggest four of which were achieved on 3 November over the Rybachy Peninsula. done MisterBee1966 (talk) 14:36, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] comma after "At the end of 1943" done MisterBee1966 (talk) 10:37, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] "Arriving from Pskov" how did he get there? reworded MisterBee1966 (talk) 12:21, 3 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] comma after " In January 1944" done MisterBee1966 (talk) 12:21, 3 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] suggest Between 10:50 to 10:58 on 1 February 1944, Weissenberger achieved his fifth "ace in a day", taking his total to 124. On 28 February, he claimed his 140th aerial victory. done MisterBee1966 (talk) 14:36, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] suggest At the end of February 1944, II. Gruppe relocated again to Polotsk and then to Jakobstadt, and on 16 March Weissenberger claimed his 141st victory. done MisterBee1966 (talk) 14:52, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] "three Il-2 "Sturmovik" ground attack aircraft", the IL-2 is introduced earlier, should be fully introduced when it first appears. done MisterBee1966 (talk) 14:52, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] suggest On 25 March 1944, another "ace in a day" achievement saw his total increase to 153 aerial victories. done MisterBee1966 (talk) 14:52, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] suggest In late March 1944, II. Gruppe was transferred to the far north again, and was based at Alakurtti. Here they defended against the Vyborg–Petrozavodsk Offensive. done MisterBee1966 (talk) 14:43, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] suggest He claimed three aircraft shot down on 4 April, and four more on 9 April, taking his victories from 159 to 162. done MisterBee1966 (talk) 14:43, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] At the end of April 1944, II. Gruppe relocated to Jakobstadt, withdrawing from the Arctic Front for the last time. done MisterBee1966 (talk) 14:43, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] On 17 May he claimed victories 169 to 172, and the next day shot down three Yakovlev Yak-9's, taking his total to 175. done MisterBee1966 (talk) 14:43, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] At the end of May 1944, II. Gruppe was transferred to Defense of the Reich duties and was relocated to Gardelegen Airfield in Germany. done MisterBee1966 (talk) 14:43, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] Combat on the Western FrontY suggest Three days after he took command, the Allied invasion of Normandy began. To counter the invasion, elements of I./JG 5 were transported to France by train that afternoon. done MisterBee1966 (talk) 06:34, 3 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] suggest The following day, Weissenberger took I. Gruppe into combat, achieving "ace in a day" status once again on his first day of combat on the Western Front. done MisterBee1966 (talk) 06:34, 3 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] 181st and 182nd aerial victories done MisterBee1966 (talk) 06:34, 3 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] link fighter bomber on first mention I think it is MisterBee1966 (talk) 06:34, 3 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] Where? I believe the first mention is Montdidier came under heavy fighter bomber attack, but it isn't linked there. Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 07:14, 3 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] Look here in "War on the Arctic Front" section Max Franzisket flew on a ground attack mission against.... MisterBee1966 (talk) 08:34, 3 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] That is a link to Air-to-ground weaponry not fighter bomber? Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 12:03, 3 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] done MisterBee1966 (talk) 12:24, 3 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] At 07:02 Weissenberger shot down his third P-47 of the day done MisterBee1966 (talk) 06:34, 3 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] three Lockheed P-38 Lightnings destroyed done MisterBee1966 (talk) 06:34, 3 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] The next day, ~~on 7 July~~ done MisterBee1966 (talk) 06:34, 3 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] numbers 188 to 190 done MisterBee1966 (talk) 06:34, 3 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] managed to shoot down one Spitfire done MisterBee1966 (talk) 06:34, 3 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] inspected ~~the~~ II. Gruppe done MisterBee1966 (talk) 06:34, 3 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] having taken off at 19:00 done MisterBee1966 (talk) 06:34, 3 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] On 25 July 1944, the Gruppe done MisterBee1966 (talk) 06:34, 3 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] and became ~~the~~ III. Gruppe done MisterBee1966 (talk) 06:34, 3 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] Flying the Messerschmitt Me 262Y probably worth adding that Nowotny was a Me 262 test pilot and had received the Diamonds. Otherwise it sort of begs the question why a wing was named after him in particular. added some text MisterBee1966 (talk) 08:20, 3 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] suggest Weissenberger’s appointed Staffelkapitäne in I. Gruppe were Oberleutnant Hans Grünberg, Oberleutnant Fritz Stehle, and Oberleutnant Hans Waldmann, commanding 1.–3. Staffel respectively. done MisterBee1966 (talk) 08:20, 3 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] in the aftermath done MisterBee1966 (talk) 08:20, 3 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] and was credited with a total of 208 done MisterBee1966 (talk) 08:20, 3 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] Later lifeY add a comma after driver after the war done MisterBee1966 (talk) 08:20, 3 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] AwardsY both RK ranks need a space between the German rank and parentheses done MisterBee1966 (talk) 08:20, 3 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] Wehrmachtbericht referencesY the second ref mentions the Ostfront, but the victory was on the Western Front? correct but this was the wording of the Wehrmachtbericht. I would have to speculate why they wrote Ostfront. I added a sic to make this evident. MisterBee1966 (talk) 08:20, 3 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] weird, but ok. Dates of rankY two promotions were equivalent to 1st Lt? fixed MisterBee1966 (talk) 08:20, 3 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
	1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.	Oberstleutnant, Johannes Steinhoff and Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves and Swords are overlinked (last sentence)Y fixed MisterBee1966 (talk) 09:07, 1 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] OKL is now overlinked in the awards section. removed, thanks MisterBee1966 (talk) 08:39, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
2. Verifiable with no original research:
	2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline.	no citation for his FrontflugspangeY removed MisterBee1966 (talk) 09:07, 1 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
	2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).	pro-steilstrecke.de/eifelrennen/nuerburgring_eifelrennen_1950.htm seems a bit fanboi-ish to me, surely there was newspaper coverage of the crash?Y augmented by other sources MisterBee1966 (talk) 09:10, 1 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] historicracing.com does not appear to meet WP:RS. It would better to rely just on Bowman, or source any information he doesn't mention from another reliable source. removed MisterBee1966 (talk) 14:56, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
	2c. it contains no original research.
3. Broad in its coverage:
	3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic.
	3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).
	4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.
	5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
	6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content.	I don't believe File:Oak Leaves ceremony August 1943 Rastenburg.jpg can be fair use, as another (free) file is being used to show his appearance. hm, I disagree, at least in other cases reviewers have ruled differently. In focus of this image is the ceremony, a historic event, on which participated. MisterBee1966 (talk) 09:10, 1 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] then the non-free rationale needs to reflect this purpose. Have a look at the non-free rationale at File:Artur Phleps and Kurt Waldheim.jpg updated MisterBee1966 (talk) 08:14, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply] I've tweaked it further. I think it is ok now. Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 09:29, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
	6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.
	7. Overall assessment.	~~Placing on hold for seven days for remaining comments to be addressed. Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 07:56, 3 January 2015 (UTC)~~ Passing now, remaining comments are not an obstacle to GA.[reply] Thanks for the thorough review; I didn't realize how bad my English is. I believe to have asked for additional input, commented on, or addressed every comment made so far. MisterBee1966 (talk) 08:24, 3 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

A couple of suggestions for A-Class by Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 09:58, 3 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

notes for the rank equivalents
place a bit more focus on the number of "ace-in-a-day" events. Perhaps by putting them in a table or by noting using ordinals which one each was ie "This was the fifth occasion on which he achieved "ace-in-a-day" status." or similar.
suggest dropping (1st Group) etc when you established the first translation of Gruppe. ie no need to repeat for 1st Group, 3rd Group.
suggest a table with his victories.