Talk:Theckchok Dorje, 14th Karmapa Lama

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Title is Karmapa, not Karmapa Lama. Corrected page title changed back to incorrect page title, in error

Sorry, Hey man im josh, I see you're an administrator, but you incorrectly re-moved or reversed the corrected page title.

1 The Karmapa's title is 'Karmapa', or 'Gyalwang Karmapa', and not 'Karmapa Lama'. It has never been 'Karmapa Lama'. Where did this error originate?

See the name list of the 17 Karmapas here https://kagyuoffice.org/karmapa/the-17-karmapas/ or look at any scholarly site on Tibetan Buddhism, such as Lotsawa House or Treasury of Lives.

2 At the 15th Karmapa Khakhyap Dorje, it has an "h" in his name as per the Karmapa's website, which your re-move there also incorrectly deleted.

Again, see the name list of the 17 Karmapas here https://kagyuoffice.org/karmapa/the-17-karmapas/

3 The naming convention for Tibetan Buddhists is tulku number, then spiritual title, then given name. On this page here, the correct page title is 14th Karmapa, Tekchok Dorje.

- An example is "Texts by the 14th Karmapa, Tekchok Dorje (theg mchog rdo rje, 1798/99–1868/69)" at the scholarly Lotsawahouse.org https://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-masters/fourteenth-karmapa/

- Another example is "The Sixteenth Karmapa, Rangjung Rigpai Dorje" at the scholarly Lotsawahouse.org:scholarly Treasury of Lives: https://treasuryoflives.org/biographies/view/Sixteenth-Karmapa-rang-byung-rig-pai-rdo-rje/11385

These links are very clear, in case there was some doubt for some reason. Therefore, please undue your re-move, since I'm sure it was made in error. Metokpema (talk) 17:48, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I spent hours as a volunteer correcting all of the page titles for the Karmapas. Please undue all of your reverts, which were clearly made in repetitive errors. Metokpema (talk) 18:08, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hey man im josh You haven't responded here, on my talk, or corrected your errors. I'll give you another day then re-correct your errors. If you irresponsibly change the corrections a second time, I'll cite you for edit warring. Don't administrators get vetted before becoming administrators?Metokpema (talk) 13:33, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's... not how edit warring works @Metokpema. As mentioned, you should have started a move discussion. I'll give it a go later on. Hey man im josh (talk) 13:35, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Additionally, my status as an administrator has absolutely no baring or affect on this discussion or any of my actions in these moves, it's entirely irrelevant as I'm not using the tools for an administrator task or acting in an administrator capacity, simply as an editor instead. Hey man im josh (talk) 13:35, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Edit warring is not restricted to a 24 hour period. 8 days plus 5 days plus 2 days currently is 15 days - that your mistakes have been posted onto the project.

It's been a week since I posted the sources for my page moves (never imagined another editor would revert the corrections, didn't check my user account) that you claimed to need. But you still have not even read them:

1.Standard naming conventions for tulku lineages from 3 sources

2.The Karmapa's name according to the Karmapa and to academic sources.

It's been 15 days without any posted sources by you to support your mistakes.

Example: The page title here for Bill Clinton is NOT Billy Bob Clinton, no matter how 'cute' the rhyming is or your chosen political leanings.

Likewise, the Karmapa is NOT Karmapa Lama.

Another example: The Karmapa is of the Kagyu tulku lineage. The title does not include 'Lama'. The Gelug tulku lineages includes the 14th Dalai Lama, Tenzin Gyatso, and the 11th Panchen Lama, Gedhun Choekyi Nyima. That's another lineage, different spiritual titles. The Sakya tulku lineage is currently the 43rd Sakya Trizin Gyana Vajra Rinpoche. His title is NOT Sakya Trizin Lama. Again, the title does NOT include 'Lama'.

Time's up. Metokpema (talk) 06:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, repairing the mistaken reversions now.

Firstly : The Tulku lineage title is Karmapa, per the Karmapa himself (see kagyuoffice link above) and by two scholarly sources (see above - Lotsawa House and Treasury of Lives, both easily accessible for lay people).

Beyond necessary is more proof, as are these examples from the library of the Buddhist Digital Resource Center. See the correct 'Karmapa' title, without 'Lama'. Please note that these are in Wylie, translated from Tibetan where the tulku lineage number follows the tulku title (karma pa 08). In the English scholarly title convention for tulku lineages, the number preceeds the tulku title (8th Karmapa). These are texts in BDRCs library:

-By: karma pa 08 mi bskyod rdo rje

-By: karma pa 07 chos grags rgya mtsho

-By: karma pa 15 mkha' khyab rdo rje

-By: karma pa 03 rang byung rdo rje

Secondly : The Tulku lineage naming convention is tulku number, tulku title, then given name, as in the 8th Karmapa, Mikye Dorje. This has already been evidenced by Treasury of Lives, by Lotsawa House, and by the Karmapa's website. In addition, BDRC's examples also correspond. As three sources illustrate, the English convention puts the number before the tulku title, a minor variation on BDRCs additional example of the Wylie translation of Tibetan.

Fifteen days have passed without any presented evidence that my previous page moves were in error. No evidence has been presented that the previously misspelled page titles within the entire group of Karmapa tulku lineage pages should continue to stand. Therefore, since my page moves were reverted improperly and the reversions were not based on scholarly norms, my scholarly-based and evidenced corrections prevail. Metokpema (talk) 08:31, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hey man im josh, it certainly appears that your reverts were in bad faith since you refused to provide your case for your reverts for 15 days now, while effectively moving to block my future corrections of your errors. The pages cannot be corrected or moved. What did you do as an administrator to block page moves ? Abuse your administrator tools to promote your personal incorrect titles to an entire Tibetan Buddhist Tulku lineage ? (By Metokpema)

Update: I presented this edit warring for Admin review. It was deleted. Then, Josh unilaterally submitted an unsupported group page move request at 1st Karmapa on Talk, see 'Requested move 22 November 2024'. Incredible.Metokpema (talk) 10:38, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly as discussed. All pages are now up for being moved. See the banners on each article and notification on each talk page. Hey man im josh (talk) 14:00, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Düsum Khyenpa, 1st Karmapa Lama which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 20:03, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]