Talk:Theistic evolution

The 'flood'

This article seems to be missing any content relating to the requirement for the subset of Christians who believe in the 'Flood' as a literal event that a limited number of undefined 'kinds' have 'since' (supposedly) rapidly developed into more than a million individual species. The concept would seem to be within the scope of this article.--Jeffro77 (talk) 02:59, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

Those people are classified as young-earth creationists, not theistic evolutionists. Unlike TE, YEC is pseudoscientific. Flood geology does not have anything to do with TE. Félix An (talk) 23:57, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

There's nothing pseudoscientific about believing in a local flood tho. Asaduzzaman Khan Shahriar (talk) 19:07, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Is there a difference between theistic evolution and evolutionary creationism?

To me, they seem like the same idea. I use both terms interchangeably (I would consider myself as such). What are the differences, if any, between the two? Félix An (talk) 00:20, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

Pseudoscientific

@Jmc: The label "pseudoscientific" was added a few days ago by PopulationMilestones, who is likely a block-evading sockpuppet of World Population 7,800,000,000. Neither source supports it; the first is a blogpost about theology and atheism, and the second is a website promoting intelligent design. Cheers, gnu57 19:50, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

@Genericusername57:Thanks for taking this to the Talk page, as requested in my reversion. I concur that the sources given for the addition of the label "pseudoscientific" do not support it. -- Jmc (talk) 21:23, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Theistic evolution, theistic evolutionism or God-guided evolution?

I propose reducing the initial terms used in the lede to the single term 'Theistic evolution'. The usage of alternative terms is cavassed in the Definition section (and 'God-guided evolution' is not among them). -- Jmc (talk) 20:19, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Nemine dissentiente I'll make the change. -- Jmc (talk) 19:35, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

I put the additional terms in a footnote. Félix An (talk) 21:14, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

@Félix An Nicely done! I've corrected the singular > plural verb agreement. -- Jmc (talk) 21:35, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

NPOV dispute.

User JMC asked me to talk to him on the talk page about why I find his edits problematic because he thinks it's just me "being arbitrary" he had stated on my talk page without explaining at first in his original comment directed at me.

So, here is the list of problems in short order:

1. "While each fact mentioned in the article might be presented fairly, the very selection (and omission) of facts can make an article biased."

2. "Some viewpoints, although not presented as facts, can be given undue attention and space compared to others (see Wikipedia:NPOV tutorial#Space and balance)."

3. "The text and manner of writing can insinuate that one viewpoint is more correct than another."

For 1. this article leaves out tons of information to adequately explain what theistic evolutionism is or any arguments for it at all whatsoever and only lists arguments against it, both ludicrously and hilariously enough, even though Charles Darwin teaches it as the factual form of his evolutionary theory. They also made a huge list of people from this movement opposed to intelligent design, which seems to make very little sense without explaining how or where this conflict exists between the two theories. I've known people who argued for a scientific theory in support of theistic evolutionism to explain the claim the Big Bang happened through intelligent design (advocates of the teleological argument) so something seems fishy here.

2. There's a huge focus on this argument about who is in conflict with this seemingly normal hypothesis (very unusual fringe groups like young earth creationists, new atheists, intelligent design maybe, etc.) and very little about who is in support of it in the West, such as the Catholic Church (what they call "special creation" involves these things), Mainline Protestantism, etc.

3. Several recent editors in the list but very long before me, however especially JMC are trying to severely limit the tone of this article to a faux "neutrality" that leaves very little room for explaining the details of this article and keeps it very, very small and unbalanced in the proportion of different segment types of related info within this article.

184.71.97.170 (talk) 11:13, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

These are just general comments and complaints. As WP:TALK explains, please make specific proposals for article improvement, with links to the sources you propose, or full details of the sources. . . dave souza, talk 12:47, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

The article itself has all the necessary sources. You need me to name everything? I'm talking about most of the article where most of the sources lie with it. There is no complaints at all about the article, it's mainly directed at editors using tactics similar to vandal editing. And it's not intended as general comments. It's a criticism of how this article has remained almost a stub the past 10 years despite being of extremely high importance. It should be easy to see what I'm proposing for article improvement and it sounds like you're MAYBE probably trolling to not see what I said properly tbh. I've proposed Catholic sources and mainline protestant statements regarding their philosophical understandings of science, I've proposed adding more info to the article instead of keeping it bare thin, I've proposed explaining how is intelligent design incompatible with theistic evolution, and I've proposed an explanation theoretically of what the theistic evolutionism entails philosophically, and where the logical argument lies for or against it instead of these random comments all over the place saying nothing basically or very little, and to avoid side-stepping what sources say about the Big Bang link hypothesis. 184.71.97.170 (talk) 15:02, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Still vague, lacks specifics and sources, and the edits you've made get things wrong. Discuss the changes you want in detail, here. . . dave souza, talk 15:46, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

That is all false and sounds ridiculous. Do you have any proof? Explain how my last edit is wrong on here, explain where the specifics and sources are missing, explain how it's vague. Tell me what you're unable to understand in the roughly 20 sentences I've written here trying to explain this super in depth in detail to you. How is this not you trolling right now to be unable to give me a satisfactory response that addresses my many various point in depth or detail one by one fairly and concisely in a serious manner? 184.71.97.170 (talk) 18:11, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Your points have been fully addressed, so I'll remove the tag. If you feel specific wording needs improved, set it out fully on this talk page together with exact information or links to the references to justify your proposed change. Ta, dave souza, talk 09:45, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

There is a source in Reference 55 about how the universe came from nothing and they're debating about how God created the universe ex nihilo with the Big Bang and how theistic evolutionism claims the necessity of God for this. So why is JMC to desperate to remove content he labels as irrelevant info by trying to explain the dialectic in that debate Lawrence M. Krauss has with theistic evolutionism? It looks completely out of context about all of that stuff it's talking about on this article. It's like you know, yes, God is a complex explanation to involve in explaining the process of natural evolution in all of the universe, and it says he doesn't like that because it isn't simple enough, and he thinks very simple answers tend to be the best answers to giant deep theological questions about the nature and origin of the universe because of that Catholic monk's idea of Occam's Razor being persuasive, which makes him think God can't be real because God-guided evolution isn't a more simple or less smart answer than things just happen randomly without any foresight or insightful planning, everything is just chaos, statistical miracles of life are just flukes. But where is the argument or the point of it exactly? 184.71.97.170 (talk) 06:06, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

@184.71.97.170: Why are you consistently casting aspersions against Jmc? -- Rockstone^{Send me a message!} 06:20, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Hmm. Interesting response to my collaborative discussion with Mr. Souza I thought was bearing some good fruit. Is this like meant to be a funny WP:wikilawyering internet meme thing or something? Feels out of place with the theme of my intended talk section here to me since it's not directed against JMC personally, but just an edit conflict regarding views of how things must proceed on this article. You can ask me on my talk page because I'd not like this to get too off-topic. As I explained at the start, expressing the opinion explaining my logic about how I find the edits of JMC problematic in an NPOV dispute is not WP:aspersions. It's literally my opinion. I'm entitled to my own opinion under law to have freedom of thought and expression under the charter of rights and what I've been doing is not a violation of any law that I know of. It's a response to him calling me an arbitrary editor to justify reverting most (if not all) of my edits that he can. I've assumed good faith with JMC until I see otherwise, so I haven't accused him of anything regarding his personal character specifically. 184.71.97.170 (talk) 13:19, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Your Charter Rights do not apply on Wikipedia, which is a private organization (and also based in the United States... but the First Amendment doesn't apply here either). How is this not trolling? --Rockstone^{Send me a message!} 16:26, 3 August 2022 (UTC)