Talk:The Tell-Tale Heart

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Gender of narrator

This has been discussed before, the the constant repetition of 'the narrator' got awkward. I've replaced instances where 'the narrator' appears more than once in a sentence with 'they/their' (and removed a stray He). Bkatcher (talk) 00:42, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It probably won't stick for long but thanks for trying. --Midnightdreary (talk) 13:04, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You told me to "check the damn talk page." So I am. No need to get testy with me. My point is, "they" is a plural, and I think we can agree there is only one narrator. So unless you're implying that Poe's narrator was nonbinary, it is incorrect to use a plural pronoun. If you contend that the narrator could be male or female, then you should use "he or she," or you could go back to using "the narrator." I agree, both of those options are clumsy, but so is calling an individual person "they." I'm not going to edit it again, because you obviously would just revert it and tell me to "check the damn talk page." I'm just saying ... what you have now is grammatically incorrect and clumsy. If you are opposed to "he," then I would suggest "he or she," which is accurate. But that's up to you. 75.130.117.162 (talk) 19:39, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

My getting "testy" wasn't personal. It's just the same difficulty I've been navigating by watching this page for over a decade. My apologies. Here, "they" is being used as the singular they; it is not a plural in this case. --Midnightdreary (talk) 01:38, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The only "singular they" I'm aware of in grammar is when a person is non-binary and chooses that pronoun. "He or she" is singular. "They" is plural unless it is the individual's chosen pronoun. Unless you believe Poe's narrator to be non-binary, "they" is grammatically incorrect and very clumsy to read. That said, it's your entry and you can do with it what you choose. 96.225.128.109 (talk) 16:25, 26 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It's not "my" entry; Wikipedia is a collaborative project. With that being said, it's genuinely hard to believe that someone in the 21st century with access to Wikipedia has not heard of the singular they, especially when I just linked to the Wikipedia article about it. Regardless, whether you are aware of it or not, the singular they does in fact exist. --Midnightdreary (talk) 21:57, 26 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This article is extremely difficult to read as plural pronouns are used throughout to refer to a singular person. Though I understand the intent, incorrect grammar is not acceptable. Keeping in mind the culture at the time the story was written and the subject matter, it's probably safe to assume a masculine narrator. However, if we really think that is offensive (which I doubt anyone really does), since the narrator is not described "he/she" would be preferable to "they". 2600:1702:A00:1F70:9CCB:2838:915A:23E4 (talk) 17:15, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

See singular they. Users not understanding something that is extremely common is not the fault of the article. It being "safe to assume" the narrator is male is rather sexist and patriarchal. --Midnightdreary (talk) 15:53, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Use of the word "they" -- even if it's correct and accurate -- is confusing to the reader. Some alternative should be explored. 32.209.69.132 (talk) 05:09, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If a reader is confused by an accurate and correct use of the English language, they may not be literate enough to be reading this article and there is nothing further we can do for them. --Midnightdreary (talk) 13:51, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Lose the smug attitude. One can be literate, and still have the article be confusing. As in this case. They are not mutually exclusive. Also, remember: most other readers are not as smart ("literate enough") as you (think you) are. 32.209.69.132 (talk) 06:14, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Alas, typing text here does not easily portray emotion or attitude. Sorry my tone was unclear and easy to misinterpret. I will ignore the personal attack. --Midnightdreary (talk) 13:45, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

For what it's worth, with all due respect, several people are telling you that your repeated use of the "singular they" here is distracting to the reader, and your response is to get angry and sarcastic. Maybe you should consider that it possibly *is* distracting to the reader, even if it is technically not incorrect. 198.252.240.2 (talk) 18:01, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm assuming this was addressed towards me and, if so, thank you for your comment. I recognize it's hard to convey tone in written communication and sometimes I slip. I'll try to be mindful. With regards to the comment on using the grammatically correct singular they, I worry there is some agenda being pushed since this issue wasn't as much of a problem a few years ago. I would, nevertheless, argue that a few comments about confusion here do not outweigh the statistic that tens of thousands of people (page info says over 17K in the past 30 days) see this article every year and do not express that same concern. Is that consensus enough? I honestly don't know. --Midnightdreary (talk) 00:45, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Beating of the heart

In a couple of spots, this article states that "the narrator hears the old man's heart beating". I don't think that's accurate. As a reader (of the short story), we are not sure if the narrator hears (A) the old man's heart beating; or (B) his own -- the narrator's -- heart beating. I think it's an intentional ambiguity that Poe leaves in the story. I (and many other experts) believe that the insane narrator hears his own heart pounding -- due to his nervousness and excitement -- yet mistakenly believes that he is hearing the old man's heart pounding. Thus, the article should reword these sections. It should not say "the narrator hears the old man's heart beating". But, rather, "the narrator believes -- or claims -- to hear the old man's heart beating". A small -- but significant -- fix. Thanks. 32.209.69.132 (talk) 05:17, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This particular point being ambiguous is the most important part of the story so it's hardly an "expert" opinion. This is vaguely addressed in the lede, but the description here merely reflects the original text. Anything beyond showing that the narrator hears the beating heart at face value would be interpretive and, therefore, be analysis rather than plot summary and would require a citation. --Midnightdreary (talk) 13:48, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not true. This article is summarizing the story. It is not directly quoting from the story. Those are two different things. For example, in the plot summary it says: The narrator hears the old man's heart beating. It is stated as fact. I am suggesting that it should be re-worded as The narrator claims that he hears the old man's heart beating or The narrator states that he hears the old man's heart beating or some such. It does not require a citation. This is my suggestion. But -- I forgot -- you clearly "own" this article. 32.209.69.132 (talk) 06:21, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry you feel that I am claiming ownership over this article. I am not. I genuinely thought you came to the talk page to discuss this point and I was providing my thoughts based on several years of experience on this project. My only goal is to support your edit suggestions in a way that aligns with Wiki policies. --Midnightdreary (talk) 13:46, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Publishing year of Clarke's illustration

The caption under Harry Clarke's illustration for Poe's "Tales of mystery and imagination" says that it is from the year 1919. The 1919 edition of the anthology was illustrated by Clarke, although it only featured black and white drawings. The illustration in question and other colored illustrations were only added in the 1923 edition of the book. Thus, the caption should say that the illustration was published in 1923 not 1919. AtlasFinnegan (talk) 18:33, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Atlas. Do you have a source that the original file can link to? I believe I was the uploaded the original way back in 2007 but I didn't provide a source. --Midnightdreary (talk) 18:56, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is a bit difficult to find a source that directly mentions that the drawing was published in 1923. This one "https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.21359#0056" mentions that the 1919 edition had black and white drawings, which means the drawing in question wasn't included. Furthermore, there is the V&A Museum webdite (https://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O1743926/tales-of-mystery-and-imagination-book-harry-clarke/), although I don't know if that's a suitable source. Of course it would be best to consult the respective first editions of both books, but good luck getting a hold of those. AtlasFinnegan (talk) 23:48, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think those would work for now. Feel free to make the edit to this article and also to add the source to the image's file as well. --Midnightdreary (talk) 00:38, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]