Talk:The Number Devil

The Number Devil has been listed as one of the Language and literature good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
December 21, 2011	Good article nominee	Listed

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GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:The Number Devil/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: MathewTownsend (talk · contribs) 20:56, 18 December 2011 (UTC) Hi, I will be starting this article by tomorrow. MathewTownsend (talk) 20:56, 18 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Hello. Well, I had this article in my sights, and was just coming to start the review. Since you've already taken it, MathewTowsend, I think I'll wait for you to review it, then I'll add in my own concerns -- that way we save time by avoiding redundancies. Bobnorwal (talk) 17:20, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I hope that doesn't mean there are too many flaws...--Architeuthidae (Talk | Contributions) 18:04, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

Is it reasonably well written?
A. Prose quality:

B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:
Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
A. References to sources:
Uses primary sources, e.g. references to two teachers' lesson plans:

Example: "Because of its alleviating approach to mathematics, The Number Devil is often used in the curricula of youth mathematics education." (doesn't indicate what country this pertains to)
This sourced to two primary sources, i.e. two examples of a lesson plan.[1][2] There is no source that it is "often used in the curricula of youth mathematics education.

B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:
Quoting the books publisher is not considered a reliable source.

Example: "It has sold millions of copies and has been translated into 26 languages."[3]
The source says: the back of the book says it is "an international bestseller--over a million copies sold worldwide; translated into 26 languages." My theory is that over a million parents the world over, who speak 26 languages between them, think this should be good for their offspring. What their offspring think is moot."

"The Number Devil also had considerable success outside the Western world, such as in Japan, where it has become a hit for those "afraid of mathematics."
The source says:[4]

Some German books continue to sell well, though, like Hans Magnus Enzensberger's "Zahlenteufel" ("The Number Devil") - "a bedtime story for anyone who's afraid of mathematics."' (publisher's quote)

In Japan, "The Number Devil" is also a hit, perhaps because the book fills a gap in children's education and may even manage something that some schools don't: getting kids excited about math. (Note that the quote for those "afraid of mathematics" is not associated with Japan in the source.)

C. No original research:
(See above)
Is it broad in its coverage?
A. Major aspects:

B. Focused:
Does it follow the neutral point of view policy.
Fair representation without bias: Examples:
"The book was a hit across Europe, becoming a best seller in at least Spain, Italy, and, of course, Germany, among others."
To me this sounds a little POV, especially with the "of course". And it is not supported by the source given.[5]

"It has been compared to Alice in Wonderland and Flatland in its use of mathematical principles, and has even been suggested to adult readers troubled with math."
This misrepresents the source which says: "Hans Magnus Enzensberger's "mathematical adventure" has been compared with Alice and Flatland, at least by its publisher, which hopes it will attract adult maths-phobics as well as children."[6] This same source goes on to say: "However, in the end, the story's charm seemed mainly superficial;" and "I suspect this is the sort of book that well-meaning adults will mistakenly thrust upon children because it will be Good for Them, not necessarily a book that one child would heartily recommend to another."

There are several sources that say the book isn't one that would be enjoyed by children. One says he gave to his daughter but she didn't like it. A couple of sources says the reviewer, and adult, didn't like the book. A balanced article would give both positive and negative reviews. Also, since the book is for children and young people, there should be some evaluation of how the target audience regards this book, not just whether adults enjoyed it or not.
Is it stable?
No edit wars, etc:
Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:
Note: there are two non-free images.

B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:
Caption for illustration under copyright doesn't credit the illustrator, Rotraut Susanne Berner.
Overall:
Pass or Fail:

The above reference problems are examples. There may be more in the article. And some of the sources are in German which I don't read.
I will place this article on hold for seven days.

MathewTownsend (talk) 21:32, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have attempted to address each of your issues.--Architeuthidae (Talk | Contributions) 00:36, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Additions

I just have a list of miscellaneous additions:

The cover image is awfully blurry. I think it would be a good idea to find a better replacement.
There is some obvious overlinking. (WP:OVERLINK)
"The book was met with positive reviews from critics, some admitting that..." Surely there's a better word than "admitting"
I see a few minor prose problems in the Plot section. I'll fix them for you. (Feel free to revert.)
While reading the History section I got no sense of time since there are no dates. I have no idea, particularly, when he wrote it, when it was translated, or even when it was published. Come to think of it, the lead makes no mention of the publication date, either.
Also, I think it would be a good idea to list the "various famous mathematicians" mentioned at the end of the Plot section.

I hope this helps, and doesn't sound too much like nitpicking. If nothing else, just know that I think everything MathewTownsend suggests is very reasonable. I too don't speak German, so I too can't verify those sources. :( I'm sorry to put you through all this. Mathew said on my talkpage that this is a delightful article, and I agree. Best wishes, anyways! Bobnorwal (talk) 01:51, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the help. I have addressed your issues as well.--Architeuthidae (Talk | Contributions) 00:36, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, you definitely met all my concerns perfectly! Bobnorwal (talk) 04:20, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Reply - remaining issues

Very much improved - just a few remaining issues with the sources.

The Number Devil was a bestseller, and was translated into 26 languages...

This information needs a citation from a credible source, preferably reporting some figures or recording its place on a bestseller's list, like that of the New York Times. Also, where was it a bestseller? Worldwide?

children's books.

The author has said that he dislikes the term "children's books" (he hates the term "children's books")[7] - so perhaps use "young people's" as a substitute occasionally.

Because of its alleviating approach to mathematics, The Number Devil is sometimes used by parents for children's mathematics education around the world.

This is not supported by the source. It is an unsigned review written by one person of unknown qualifications. The site says that it focuses on math education in California, "more importantly algebra" so it is not an authority for mathematics education worldwide.[8]

I wanted to review this book here on the Math Mirror Book Page so that eighth graders in California would know that learning to be comfortable with math takes place in other countries, too. And parents all over the world find treasures like this book to help their children develop the math confidence that is critical so they will courageously stay with their math and algebra studies.

The children's book has also been suggested to adult readers troubled with math.

This is not supported by the source which gives a much more nuanced evaluation.[9]

"Hans Magnus Enzensberger's "mathematical adventure" has been compared with Alice and Flatland, at least by its publisher, which hopes it will attract adult maths-phobics as well as children."
"I suspect this is the sort of book that well-meaning adults will mistakenly thrust upon children because it will be Good for Them, not necessarily a book that one child would heartily recommend to another."
"Perhaps The Number Devil is best described as a pretend children's book for adults who want to familiarise themselves with what's going on in the ivory towers. Those who are curious as to what lies beyond the algebra and trig they learned at school, or anyone teaching maths, will undoubtedly find some of the ideas and approaches in The Number Devil well worth taking in."

The book was a hit across Europe, becoming a best seller in at least Spain, Italy, and Germany, among others.

"The Number Devil" became the best selling book in Spain and rose high on the charts in Germany, Italy and other countries."[10] - I'm not sure what "the bes selling book in Spain" means. If it said "a best selling" it would be clearer.

The Number Devil also had considerable success outside the Western world, such as in Japan, where it has been described as filling "a gap in children's education.

Again, the source is more nuanced.[11] It is discussing "a nine-percent drop in the sale book rights to other countries":

'Some German books continue to sell well, though, like Hans Magnus Enzensberger's "Zahlenteufel" ("The Number Devil") - "a bedtime story for anyone who's afraid of mathematics."' Does "sell well" to "other countries" equal "considerable success outside the Western world?
"In Japan, "The Number Devil" is also a hit, perhaps because the book fills a gap in children's education and may even manage something that some schools don't: getting kids excited about math." Does "perhaps because the book fills a gap in children's education" support the statement? Also, the statement comes from a German article; it is not a statement made in Japan.

The "Reception" section is immensely improved!
Also, once the article is completed, make sure the lede accurately summarizes the article content.

MathewTownsend (talk) 16:14, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've had to take out quite a few things, but I believe I have addressed your issues. Feel free to change anything you'd like.--Architeuthidae (Talk | Contributions) 17:11, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's good! My final evaluation is below. MathewTownsend (talk) 20:43, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Is it reasonably well written?
A. Prose quality:

B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:
Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
A. References to sources:

B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

C. No original research:
Is it broad in its coverage?
A. Major aspects:

B. Focused:
Does it follow the neutral point of view policy.
Fair representation without bias:
Is it stable?
No edit wars, etc:
Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:
Overall:
Pass or Fail:

Very nice work! Thanks for being so responsive.

Congratulations!

MathewTownsend (talk) 20:43, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

omg the number devil :love: :hearts: — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:3D09:1580:9600:C97A:1669:637E:9F10 (talk) 19:29, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]