Talk:The Magic Flute

I added a section that plays the entire opera as 30 ogg files

I added the gallery of 30 ogg files that I found on Wikimedia Commons. You might instead prefer a link out to a review of Bergman's 1977 film that is under construction in Wikiversity at v:Movie Reviews/The Magic Flute. I might add that this collection from Commons has value even though one can always find a rendition of this opera for free on the internet: Unlike YouTube or other online sites, this version is guaranteed to be stable and free of advertisements. Also, my German is Nicht gut, and I was constrained to use short titles. You might want to edit that.--Guy vandegrift (talk) 21:42, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for that gallery. However, it now duplicates 4 numbers from the 1953 Fricsay recording. I don't like those numbers removed from their textual context, so I don't know how to avoid the duplication. Placing all 30 files in the text would leave no room for pictures, unless we sandwich the text. So I guess we have to live with that duplication.

As for the English translations: I strongly suggest to retain the original German incipits – they are universally much better recognized. Further, it would be helpful if we could align the numerals (currently 1–30) of the sound files to the numbering in the score (Overture, 1–21). Maybe the sound files could be joined in a table with the current list "Musical numbers". I will try that within the next few days. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 00:41, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

I don't edit Wikipedia much, but agree that you should use German labels if you can't find reputable translations. Opinions don't count for much on this wiki. Also, consider putting the entire collection on Commons (with linkouts from Wikipedia and Wikiversity.) If we put it on Commons, I might be able use the subst: template option to format the wikitext on a wiki without resorting to templates (though I personally prefer the simple gallery.) Another option is to put the collection on Wikipedia's Deutsches_Symphonie-Orchester_Berlin.--Guy vandegrift (talk) 03:10, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

@Michael Bednarek: You probably know about this, but I found a more flexible way to display sound files. The template also works on Commons: --Guy vandegrift (talk) 04:43, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

For my latest effort, see v:User:Guy vandegrift/sandbox--Guy vandegrift (talk) 15:21, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Act 1

1. Introduction: "Zu Hilfe! Zu Hilfe! Sonst bin ich verloren" – Tamino, Three Ladies
2. Aria: "Der Vogelfänger bin ich ja" (The birdcatcher am I) – Papageno
3. Aria: "Dies Bildnis ist bezaubernd schön" (This image is enchantingly beautiful) – Tamino
4. Recitative and aria: "O zittre nicht, mein lieber Sohn" (Oh, tremble not, my beloved son) – The Queen of the Night
5. Quintet: "Hm Hm Hm" – Tamino, Papageno, Three Ladies
6. Terzet: "Du feines Täubchen, nur herein!" – Monostatos, Pamina, Papageno
7. Duet: "Bei Männern, welche Liebe fühlen" (In men, who feel love) – Pamina and Papageno
8. Finale 1: "Zum Ziele führt dich diese Bahn / Wie stark ist nicht dein Zauberton / Das klinget so herrlich / Es lebe Sarastro"
   --How does this look? Click the sound file to hear the piece.Guy vandegrift (talk) 01:59, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

(ec) Thanks for showing how this might work using {{Audio}}. After you reminded me above about that template, I, too, thought this would be be the simplest option, and your example shows indeed how simple and non-intrusive it is. However, the disadvantage of {{Audio}} is its lack of player controls – it only does "Stop" and "Restart from beginning", no "Continue". The thumbnail presentation only offers "Start", "Pause", "Continue" (no "Restart from the beginning"), but the template {{Listen}} offers "Start", "Pause", "Continue", and a slider to position the playback forward or backward, and it shows the track's duration; it does not allow to change the width of the playback bar. On balance, I think that's what I would like to implement. You can see this method at Christmas Oratorio#Part I. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:03, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Christmas Oratorio#Part 1 would be a better template, but looks difficult to create. Are you good at making Wikitables? Do you need any help? Meanwhile, I will quickly finish my simpler version an post it on Wikiversity with a call for student essays. The quickest way to contact me is at Wikiversity:User talk:Guy vandegrift, but I will also monitor this page and keep you posted on my progress.--Guy vandegrift (talk) 02:30, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

I will implement that table-based presentation in a day or two. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 03:24, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

From The_Magic_Flute#Musical_numbers it looks like your implementation time was a "a day or less". My only comment involves your objection to {{Audio}}. Are you aware that there are two ways to play    ?  ...  My computer shows two consecutive icons. The first looks like a speaker and plays the song without showing you anything. And, you can only start and pause (unable to restart.) But my computer shows a small superscript circle with "i" in the center (after the speaker.) Clicking the superscript takes you to Commons where you have full control over "stop/start/pause". The icons look better if you put them in front of the text:

Act 1

1. Introduction: "Zu Hilfe! Zu Hilfe! Sonst bin ich verloren" – Tamino, Three Ladies
2. Aria: "Der Vogelfänger bin ich ja" (The birdcatcher am I) – Papageno

... or maybe sans numerals like this:

Act 1

Introduction: "Zu Hilfe! Zu Hilfe! Sonst bin ich verloren" – Tamino, Three Ladies

Aria: "Der Vogelfänger bin ich ja" (The birdcatcher am I) – Papageno

Since I am almost finished in User:Guy vandegrift/sandbox/sandbox, that is what I will put on Wikiversity--Guy vandegrift (talk) 07:55, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

I know that clicking the information icon ⓘ of {{Audio}} takes the reader to the file on Commons. But that takes us back to the behaviour of that template before the introduction the Phonos MediaWiki extension a few months ago and defeats the feature of playing audio inline without leaving the article. As I wrote before, on balance the template {{Listen}} works better here, with some penalties in the bulkiness department. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 09:49, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

I see what you mean - it's no trouble for me because I can open as a new tab, but the typical reader is likely to get bewildered. ... I think I will use your template and see if I can simplify and compress the size: My goal is a gateway experience on a page about writing movie reviews, and an intended audience that has no a priori interest in the opera. It will link out to this Wikipedia article. Thanks for doing all this.--Guy vandegrift (talk) 14:48, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Plot summary for lead

I replaced

The allegorical plot was influenced by Schikaneder and Mozart's interest in Freemasonry and concerns the initiation of Prince Tamino. Enlisted by the Queen of the Night to rescue her daughter Pamina from the high priest Sarastro, Tamino comes to admire the high ideals of Sarastro. He and Pamina both join Sarastro's community, while the Queen and her allies are vanquished.

with an older version:

In the opera the Queen of the Night persuades Prince Tamino to rescue her daughter Pamina from captivity under the high priest Sarastro; instead, he learns the high ideals of Sarastro's community and seeks to join it. Separately, then together, Tamino and Pamina undergo severe trials of initiation, which end in triumph, with the Queen and her cohorts vanquished. The earthy Papageno, who accompanies Tamino on his quest, fails the trials completely but is rewarded anyway with the hand of his ideal female companion Papagena.

Reasons:

• The view that the plot is allegorical (i.e. about Maria Theresia) is controversial, and perhaps is even acquiring the status of a crackpot theory; see Libretto of the Magic Flute for discussion.
• The Freemasonry claim is certainly common but it is now called into question by thoughtful people; see again Libretto of the Magic Flute. While it may still have adherents, in general we don't put controversial speculation into the lead as if it were fact.
• The old plot summary I restored is hardly any longer but has some really essential things: the trials the characters undergo, and the character Papageno (who I suspect has more stage time than anyone else).

Opus33 (talk) 00:14, 8 November 2024 (UTC)