Talk:The Lighthouse (2019 film)

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the The Lighthouse (2019 film) article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1

The Lighthouse (2019 film) has been listed as one of the Media and drama good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: June 25, 2021. (Reviewed version).

Film: Canadian / American

	Film portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Film. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see lists of open tasks and regional and topical task forces. To use this banner, please refer to the documentation. To improve this article, please refer to the guidelines.FilmWikipedia:WikiProject FilmTemplate:WikiProject Filmfilm
	This article is supported by the Canadian cinema task force.
	This article is supported by the American cinema task force.

Horror Mid‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Horror, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to fictional horror in film, literature and other media on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit one of the articles mentioned below, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and contribute to the general Project discussion to talk over new ideas and suggestions.HorrorWikipedia:WikiProject HorrorTemplate:WikiProject Horrorhorror
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Canada: Nova Scotia / Cinema Low‑importance

	Canada portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Canada, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Canada on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CanadaWikipedia:WikiProject CanadaTemplate:WikiProject CanadaCanada-related
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by WikiProject Nova Scotia.
	This article is supported by the joint Canadian film and cinema task force

LGBTQ+ studies

This article is of interest to WikiProject LGBTQ+ studies, which tries to ensure comprehensive and factual coverage of all LGBTQ-related issues on Wikipedia. For more information, or to get involved, please visit the project page or contribute to the discussion.LGBTQ+ studiesWikipedia:WikiProject LGBTQ+ studiesTemplate:WikiProject LGBTQ+ studiesLGBTQ+ studies

United States Low‑importance

	United States portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions. Template Usage Articles Requested! Become a Member Project Talk Alerts United StatesWikipedia:WikiProject United StatesTemplate:WikiProject United StatesUnited States
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

2010s Low‑importance

	2010s portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject 2010s, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 2010s on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.2010sWikipedia:WikiProject 2010sTemplate:WikiProject 2010s2010s
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the importance scale.

Full cast

There are more in the cast. There are the two actors who play the previous wickies that the main characters replace. Also, there is the blond-haired man who plays the real Thomas Howard.

Genre

Please don't change the genre in the lead without a source. Currently, the genres mentioned reflect what is stated in the article. Andrzejbanas (talk) 19:29, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

What source is necessary to judge the genre of a work? Multiple reviewers have listed it as horror, yet you use The Concordian (which is student-run) as a base for calling it a thriller? Furthermore, calling it "psychological" is also to imply a certain analytical framework for the movie's narrative. How do you know it's not a mythological story? I find that if reception, intention and marketing all call it a horror, then it is strange to say that it is a thriller. ((User talk) — Preceding unsigned comment added by ConyJuul (talk • contribs) 17:01, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In general, genre is something to be interpreted so we should take in only third-party sources on how the genre is interpreted only after the film was released and received by an audience. I think we should take in more sources and find one that more specifically look at genres and give more detailed information on their reasoning for it belonging to specific sources. Andrzejbanas (talk) 13:49, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, but currently, the sources aren't matching with what the article says. Both articles that we currently use as sources call the movie both a thriller and a horror. Using these sources to call it a thriller is not smart, since they both could equally be used to call it a horror. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ConyJuul (talk • contribs) 15:23, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

As this was a very well covered film from last year, I'd suggest we look up more specific sources. If the current genre doesn't match, we change it to "thriller and horror" or whatever the sources state. Andrzejbanas (talk) 02:05, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently, this fascist editor Andrzej (like most of his/her ilk) is very one-sided on sources. No matter how correct or accurate some edits may be or how much effect is put in, the bastard just reverts based of his/her one-sidedness. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.147.68.180 (talk) 07:52, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I would suggest a reminder of WP:CIVIL here, I haven't suggested one or the other and have even tagged this genre in the article for discussion and I don't think I've suggested on way or another other than how it should not be decided. Let's not name-call people and try to focus on the discussion at hand. Andrzejbanas (talk) 18:19, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Throwing in my two cents, I feel like too much weight is being placed on the “thriller” part of these sources. The first only ever calls it a thriller in the title, and refers to it as a horror everywhere else, like when it calls the film a “supernatural, hallucinatory horror film”. Most other sites like Metacritic and Rotten Tomatoes list is as a horror movie as well. If anything it should probably list horror AND thriller rather than using only one genre or the other. Koldcuts (talk) 18:04, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't use MetaCritic or RottenTomatoes summaries as reference from genre as it would be stronger to find specific sources from critics who have seen the picture itself instead of anonymous author of a aggregate website. We should probably start digging into specific sources. Andrzejbanas (talk) 22:29, 3 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've done some quick research to find critics discussing the style and tone of the film. Some just drop genres without discussion, but it would be better to expand on it. I've found the following snippets.

https://variety.com/2019/film/reviews/the-lighthouse-review-robert-pattinson-willem-dafoe-1203220127/

"a movie you can’t pigeonhole" "draw from a number of influences, though it merges them into its own fluky gothic historical monisos art-thriller thing." and "ou may feel in your bones that you’re watching a supernatural shocker. Dafoe and Pattinson, playing these gruff period yokels, are fascinating enough to fixate our attention, but the movie also has its quota of megaplex portents: an obstreperous seagull that may be a living spirit, a glimpse of Neptunian tentacles, the Dafoe character’s nearly mystical attitude toward the lighthouse booth itself, with its luminous rotating beacon of glass. What, exactly, is up there? And what’s going down, really, between the two men? Are we seeing a slice of survival, a horror film, or a study in slow-brewing mutual insanity? How about all of the above?"

https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2019/10/lighthouse-robert-pattinson-willem-dafoe-review/600241/

At first glance, this is an internal horror film about Winslow’s worsening paranoia and fear, and it’s a good one, told with the grand, thudding aesthetic of a silent movie.

this is also a viscerally romantic film, at first driven by Winslow’s sexual mermaid vision, but eventually focused on the two men’s relationship.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/16/movies/the-lighthouse-review.html

In “The Lighthouse,” a sly American Gothic set in the late 19th century, the director Robert Eggers lights and frames the actors to emphasize every bony plane, every facial crease, hollow and pinprick of stubble.

A horror movie about inner and outer darkness, the film begins with two lighthouse workers, Wake (Dafoe) and Winslow (Pattinson), arriving on a small, desolate island.

https://www.screendaily.com/reviews/the-lighthouse-cannes-review/5139661.article

a tense, claustrophobic psychological thriller about two 19th-century US lighthouse keepers stuck on a godforsaken rocky islet.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/movies/michael-phillips/sc-mov-lighthouse-pattinson-dafoe-rev-1016-20191016-nfiv6urxtfce7br5lhg4lu73lm-story.html

That’s not to say the story operates as any sort of conventional ghost story, or thriller, or anything.

I'd be happy to discuss it more, but with more specific research about critics discussing the film specifically, it would be wrong to probably just lump it simply. It's not a straight-forward film so a simple genre in the lead would probably be inappropriate. Andrzejbanas (talk) 20:49, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Andrzejbanas, is this reaching anywhere? If there are various genres for this, just use the primary genre; if there are various primaries, then perhaps just call it cross-genre, with a footnote listing the many interpreted genres. Gerald WL 05:03, 18 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Well nobody has replied so not really I was about to take action with it Gerald Waldo Luis. As for saying cross-genre, I don't feel like that's even accurate as the articles that go into more detail about what kind of film it is say it's "hard to pin down", so that's not exactly the same thing as calling it a cross-genre film, y'know? I'd leave genre blank in the lead for now and discuss the genre with the citations above honestly. Andrzejbanas (talk) 08:16, 18 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Andrzejbanas, if you don't favor cross-genre, then there's two options left. Either omit the genre, or discuss sources and pick a genre stated the most. So let's say you sample 10 sources. If 6 say horror, then I'd call it horror. Gerald WL 08:42, 18 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at those sources above, we're certainly able to reference "horror" and "psychological thriller". Anything else seems to be reviewer's flourish. doktorb _words^deeds 08:44, 18 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Although it has been discussed as belonging to those genres, there is enough discussion above that it also does not fall comfortably under any specific genre either Doktorbuk, so it probably wouldn't be right. I'm more in favor in leaving it blank and trying to create a section for this first. Andrzejbanas (talk) 09:04, 18 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough, I agree, though we do need something in the lead/intro. Summary there, wider description in a section, seems a reasonable compromise. doktorb _words^deeds 09:12, 18 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So thanks for bringing this back to attention, i'm proposing an entry within the article like this: The Lighthouse genre was described by critics such as Manohla Dargis of The New York Times as a horror film and Lee Marshall of Screen Daily as a psychological thriller. Other critics, such as Owen Gleiberman of Variety stated that the film was one that could not be pigeonholed, declaring that "you may feel in your bones that you’re watching a supernatural shocker [...] Are we seeing a slice of survival, a horror film, or a study in slow-brewing mutual insanity? How about all of the above?"^[1] Michael Phillips of The Chicago Tribune echoed these statements, noting the films plot did not operate "as any sort of conventional ghost story, or thriller, or anything"^[1]

Obviously these citations here are just dummy ones for now, but what do other things? I'm happy to hear some extra additions/suggestions. Andrzejbanas (talk) 14:53, 20 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It's been a few weeks and I haven't heard any follow-ups to this. If there is nothing more to add, I'll assume consensus and get this going. Andrzejbanas (talk) 21:23, 1 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There hasn't been any more comments on this so I'll be removing the genre from the lead and adding this to the article. Andrzejbanas (talk) 21:38, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Reading the page now seems extremely strange. I'm following Gerald Waldos advice and listing the primary genre as horror in a few days unless someone intervenes. Currently the page reads unlike other movie pages - and the discussion is strangely favoured against horror by Andrzejbanas. Of course genre is limiting; it's a preemptive way of describing a movie. And like Koldcuts says: almost no sources are actually calling it a thriller. Most prominent sources are calling it a horror. What's your vice against the description of it being a horror-film? It seems as though a majority of critics are completely fine with the label, yet you seem to have this strange attack against it.

Hey hey. I've changed it and left for discussion after there were several changes to it back and forth. The main issue I took umbridge with was the are where other critics have said (and more than one has said this as per the prose in the article), the film doesn't fit conveniently into any specific genre. Andrzejbanas (talk) 00:50, 19 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Andrzejbanas, I see you (or someone else) added a style section covering debates over the film's genre. While that is a great approach, I think it is really sudden-toned. I would suggest adding an additional opening sentence: "The primary genre of The Lighthouse has been a subject of debate by critics and scholars." Then maybe add more information. Gerald WL 03:14, 21 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hey Hey. Yes that was me who added it. I'll always admit not to be the best writer on this site, but as stated above nobody else was really responding to the topic anymore so I just went forward with it. I'd be happy if someone wanted to re-write or expand on that obviously. :) Andrzejbanas (talk) 10:43, 21 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Wondered why this movie is presented as a strange unclassifiable enigma of genre when many weirder have genre labels just fine, came to the talk page and everything is crystal clear now. Can a movie not both be a psychological horror and psychological thriller? I could swear I've seen movies on here labeled as both before. "Survival film" and "character study" seem like nothing but padding. Nerdwizard (talk) 06:34, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies for chiming into this about a year later. Surely films can be applied to several genres, and since the 1970s, most genre films do not generally fit into one genre and are often hybrids. Its just complicated to apply as that makes understanding them difficult. I think we've sat with not applying a genre to this as by sticking to sources, there is enough discussion that while some have classified it as some form or horror or thriller film, others have said it does not really follow the traits of those either. This isn't say this film is somehow "above it all" in terms of genre, its just that it maybe does not quite fit comfortably into these terms in any generic way. Andrzejbanas (talk) 14:00, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]