Talk:The Good-Morrow

The Good-Morrow has been listed as one of the Language and literature good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
August 15, 2011	Good article nominee	Listed

A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on July 16, 2011.

The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that John Donne's poem "The Good-Morrow" references seven sleeping children, cordiform maps and Paul the Apostle?

Clarifications needed

In both the lead and the "themes" section, the article is contrasting Robert L. Sharp's interpretation with Julia M. Walker's. The sections set up Sharp's interpretation as being "it's a cordiform map (with multiple worlds)," then go on to say that Walker disagrees with Sharp's interpretation...but the description of Walker's interpretation seems to say that her interpretation is "it's a cordiform map (with one world)." So basically these people agree about the poem referencing cordiform maps; where's the "differing in their interpretation of their meaning and what the lines reference"? It seems like they just disagree on a small point of the exact map Donne was visualising, not on what he's referencing or what it means. These sections (the lead section largely copies the text from the Themes section) can use some rewriting to clarify what exactly scholars agree and disagree on.
Could you be more specific? It's slightly more nuanced - while both are cordiform, they're different classifications of cordiform map. Ironholds (talk) 21:01, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Then you should describe that nuance. Right now the paragraph is kind of murky on how their interpretations differ, to the point that I as a naive reader was left going "...wait, so they don't disagree at all? Or they think there's different numbers of worlds? or...something?" A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 21:04, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Try now? Ironholds (talk) 21:16, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, much clearer now. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 21:19, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Cool; ta. Ironholds (talk) 21:24, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The lead says, "The lover's musings move from sensual love to a state of spiritual love as he realises that, with spiritual love, the couple are liberated from fear and the need to seek adventure, because their love is enough to fulfil them." This sentence is kind of a mess; I've already re-written it once to try to make a bit more sense, but it needs the loving care of someone who actually knows what it's trying to say. Is it intended to communicate basically "the lover is musing on love. he begins by musing about sensual love, then moves on to musing about spiritual love and blah blah"? Or "the lover is musing about the process his love with his lover has taken, and how initially they had sensual love, but now they have spiritual love"? Or a little bit of both, with "the lover is musing about love. he begins thinking about sensual love, then realizes that he and his love have achieved something better, spiritual love"? A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 04:43, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Try now? Ironholds (talk) 21:01, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, better. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 21:05, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:The Good-Morrow/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: J Milburn (talk) 14:59, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

First thing's first; this isn't strictly a problem with this article, but a problem with related articles. This is somewhat alone- the only link to it from the mainspace is cunt- the book in which it appeared does not even have an article. Perhaps the best thing to do here would be to create a navbox for all things John Donne. I appreciate that this isn't technically in the criteria, but consider it the main problem nonetheless.
- It's also worth pointing out that the hinting at the word "cunt" is not mentioned in this article, but it's not referenced in the article on the term. A quick Google led me to this- worth mentioning? J Milburn (talk) 16:19, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  - It doesn't seem to have played a major role in the poem's theme or composition, so I'd probably leave it out. Ironholds (talk) 21:10, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    - Any possibility of some more internal links/a John Donne navbox? The article still strikes me as a little lonely. J Milburn (talk) 17:00, 15 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      - Try now? There'll be a navbox when I finish sticking the rest of his articles together. Ironholds (talk) 19:03, 15 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
        Infobox helps. This is still a bit of an orphan (with just the one article space link) but if there will be a navbox in the near future, I guess it can be overlooked. As I say, it isn't part of the GA criteria anyway, but it's something to be aware of. J Milburn (talk) 21:24, 15 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"two concepts that, as a practising Catholic, Donne would have been familiar with." How about "two concepts with which, as a practising Catholic, Donne would have been familiar."
- Done Ending sentences with prepositions is something up with which I generally do not put. Bad Fluffy! A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 16:12, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"the maps Donne would have been familiar with" with which Donne would have been familiar? :P
- Done A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 16:12, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"were not the Mercator-style maps" Perhaps clarify that these are what we use today?
- Done A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 16:12, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Can we have a vague date for the composition?
"While he was at Lincoln's Inn"; due to the massive disjointment between when Donne wrote his poems and when he published them, the dates of writing aren't really known. Ironholds (talk) 21:10, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
""The Good-Morrow" is considered, thematically, to be the first of this collection's poems." I don't really understand what this means
- I think this means that it is considered to have the most "immature" theme of the collection, or something. But, uh...Ironholds? Want to expand on this? A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 16:12, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  - In terms of the theme of Songs and Sonnets, The Good-Morrow is considered to be the first poem. Tweaked a wee bit; how is it now? Ironholds (talk) 21:10, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"is suggesting it is impossible" that it is?
- Done A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 16:12, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"a belief that Donne would then have later abandoned." Very odd tense, not clear what is meant
- I think this is intended to mean "a belief that Donne would then later have abandoned [which we know, given evidence that we have of something in his later work]", but I'll leave it for Ironholds to clear up exactly what evidence. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 16:12, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  - A belief that he later abandoned - now fixed. Ironholds (talk) 21:10, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"Instead, Walker suggests that Donne was basing his work on William Cunningham's Cosmographical Glasse a 1559 book which showed a single-leafed cordiform map." I think you're missing a comma/semi-colon here
- Done A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 16:12, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate that the sources may not say anything about it, but I'm left with two key questions- is this an important poem? Did it influence his later work? Did it inspire anything? Secondly, is this a good poem? Do people like it?
Not particularly; the sources I've found have no particular opinion on this work - it's not as famous as his Elegies, for example.
Looking at the references, what is "The Cambridge Companion to John Donne"? Should it be italicised? What are the works in it? You've gone for italics but not capitalised... If they're essays in a book, I'd go for "This is the name of the essay", This Is the Name of the Book.
Try now? Ironholds (talk) 16:38, 15 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Re "what is it" - a collection of essays on the life and works of John Donne. As chapter headings, they're not capitalised, sure. Ironholds (talk) 16:39, 15 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I guessed as much- I've made some formatting fixes and added some links. Hope you don't mind. J Milburn (talk) 17:00, 15 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That's cool. Ironholds (talk) 19:03, 15 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The sources seem appropriately scholarly, and there are no stability problems. Some clarification on date/authorship on File:JohnDonne.jpg and File:Seven sleepers.jpg would be helpful, and perhaps an older example of a cordiform map. Not at all bad overall. J Milburn (talk) 15:44, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Any chance of updating the date/author information on the older images? Template:Information is your friend. J Milburn (talk) 17:00, 15 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

err. Not really, because I'm not the source of the images. Ironholds (talk) 19:03, 15 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

They'll do. I'm just being picky, really- both clearly PD, enough information provided so that that may be verified. J Milburn (talk) 21:24, 15 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I'm happy to promote at this time; I've made a last few tweaks. Nice article- if it's part of a wider group, I hope to see more Donne articles at GAC in the future! J Milburn (talk) 21:24, 15 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Last closing thought- a category for all of Donne's poems (or all his works) would be a great addition. If you're working on Donne generally, I'm sure it's something you'll get to. J Milburn (talk) 21:29, 15 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]