Talk:The Forgotten Soldier

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Removed Dead Link

I pity the people that feel the need to scrutinize everything that has been an account on the memories and/or lives of the German side of the story during the war. These people do not value the German soldiers as human, or as having ever suffered in the same manner, if not WORSE than the Soviet or American troops, both during and especially after the war in Soviet internment camps. These people make me sick, and thus, in order to keep Wikipedia's supposed "ubiased" history reputation, I have removed the link citing sources that "claim inaccuracies in Sajer's book." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.41.55.88 (talk) 01:40, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Whilst in agreement with your sentiments, IMHO removal of that link would violate NPOV, as the claims of inaccuracies represent (if verified) potentially valid points. Also, many of these claims don't dispute the fact that Sajer was on the Eastern front, but point out that he may have embellished his book with stories heard from others in his unit(s). Obviously, if it is a dead link then it should be removed. Finally, the fact that 'people make you sick' is not a tenable position to take when dealing with what is supposed to be an encyclopedic article.1812ahill (talk) 21:46, 11 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sajer's Comrade

What is the source of this information in the article: "..., the comrade of the author ("Hals") who is referred throughout the book has been identified, contacted, and has verified Guy Sajer's account."? Since this statement seems of no minor relevance with respect to the book's authenticity controversy, shouldn't it be mentioned? Besides, the comrade was named Halls in the book - this should probably also be fixed. VickyP 22:33, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Actually his name is spelled as Hals in the book. I'm certain of this due to the fact that i just stopped reading the book a few minutes ago.

Well, I've got a German copy of the book in front of me ("Denn dieser Tage Qual war groß", Deutscher Bücherbund, 1969), and in it he's called Halls. It would be interesting to know how he's spelled in the French original, and also why either the English or the German translator chose to change that spelling. VickyP 21:11, 8 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've read (and am currently re-reading) the English version of Forgotten Soldier and the comrade's name is spelt as "Hals". I guess the author of the article used this spelling as this article is in 'English'. It would be nice to find out if Hals ever met Sajer again, as their parting was rather moving for me. It'd be nice to know if they ever conversed. Henners91 11:25, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Name of Sajer's Friend: Actually, Sajer used mostly pseudonyms for his character. For example, the name of Sajer's friend "Hals" or "Halls" was Stefan Walls. After being released from a British POW camp in 1946, Walls emigrated to the USA and settled in Connecticut. He made a career in the insurance industry but is believed to have died during the late 1990s. Guy Sajer last heard from him in 1996. Source of this comment is Guy Sajer aka Guy Mouminoux. User: Douglas E. Nash, 8:06 p.m., 8 January 2007.

Added 'Walls' to text with ref to feldgrau.net - hope that is acceptable vis-a-vis WP:V.1812ahill (talk) 21:51, 11 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In the swedish version it is spelled Halls. 212.181.158.116 (talk) 15:50, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In the French version too.Nortmannus (talk) 07:52, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hals dies in the book as their truck is attacked by an aircraft, so I can't make any sense of this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.143.7.44 (talk) 17:04, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Not "Hals/Halls/Walls" died in that truck, "Ernst Neubach", an Engineer-NCO did. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.15.163.86 (talk) 17:36, 18 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

More Details on the Novel

I am currently re-reading the book and if I find the time I'll try write a brief summary of the book. Henners91 11:25, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Authors Name

This article describes the authors name as a pseudonym. Reading the references at the bottom, this seems inaccurate. Sajer was his mothers maiden name and, he claims, the name under which he enlisted, due to it being a German name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Peteherron (talk • contribs) 23:41, 28 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The author's real name was Guy Mouminoux. That's the name in the Coulommiers (France) phone book. I've written him a dozen times and he has confirmed this. Sajer was his mother's maiden name and the name under which he enlisted (he volunteered - was not drafted, as many believe). His pen name is Dimitri, under which he continues to draw comic strips for publication, also known as bande dessinée. At 81, he's still going strong and turns 82 in January 2008. Posted by Douglas E. Nash, 8:15 p.m., 8 January 2008.

Mouminoux in Geopatronyme [1]Nortmannus (talk) 07:58, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Fair use rationale for Image:Forgotten Soldier.jpg

Image:Forgotten Soldier.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 19:53, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dead link

The link that goes to the Sajer bio that has a photograph seems to be dead. The page is accessible through web.archive.org, but the photograph has not been archived. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.108.180.45 (talk) 22:10, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Article cleanup

This website is not a WP:RS source. I plan to remove the content cited to it, along with content that has been uncited from 2008. Please let me know if there are any concerns. K.e.coffman (talk) 05:35, 22 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I further cleaned up the article; rationale is provided in the edit summaries. Please let me know if there are any concerns. K.e.coffman (talk) 20:51, 30 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

See

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discussion:Le_Soldat_oubli%C3%A9#Int%C3%A9ressant

Guy Sajer... who are you?

« Guy Sajer… Guy Sajer, qui es-tu ? » (A. Roche, in Revue des Conflits européens, septembre 2022)

Il aura fallu attendre la mort de Guy Mouminoux, le 11 janvier 2022 à deux jours de son quatre-vingt-quinzième anniversaire, pour qu’enfin un coin du voile de mystère qui entoure l’auteur du Soldat oublié soit levé.

Dessinateur de bandes dessinées à succès sous le nom de Dimitri, Guy Mouminoux fut aussi l’auteur de l’un des plus grands classiques du récit militaire, sous le pseudonyme de Guy Sajer. Paru en 1967 aux éditions Robert Laffont, dans la collection « Vécu », Le Soldat oublié a été traduit dans près d’une quarantaine de langues et vendu à plus de 3 millions d’exemplaires. En France, il a encore récemment été réédité dans la collection « Tempus », aux éditions Perrin (2019). Et les droits pour une adaptation au cinéma (qui ne verra finalement pas le jour) ont été acquis en 2006 par le cinéaste Paul Verhoeven, auteur de plusieurs blockbusters hollywoodiens (RoboCop, Basic Instinct, Starship Troopers…). C’est dire si ce formidable récit « autobiographique » a suscité l’engouement.

En 1968, le Soldat oublié reçoit le prix des Deux Magots. En 1971, il est traduit aux Etats-Unis où la critique l’encense. Dans le New York Times Book Review, J. Glenn Gray, professeur de philosophie et vétéran de la Seconde Guerre mondiale écrit : « Sajer dépeint brillamment et en détail les activités, les émotions, les souffrances et la terreur qui sont le lot du simple soldat […]. Ceux qui n’ont jamais eux-mêmes connu la guerre ne pourront saisir qu’une fraction de la réalité qu’il dépeint. Et même les anciens combattants devront avouer que ce qu’ils ont vécu n’était en comparaison qu’un jeu d’enfant. » En pleine guerre froide contre l’Union soviétique, plusieurs officiers de l’US Army en recommandent vivement la lecture. Le Soldat oublié devient incontournable.

Mais c’est aussi aux Etats-Unis que, quelques années plus tard, la controverse sur l’authenticité du témoignage de Sajer va se développer avec le plus d’acuité. En 1992, dans un numéro d’Army History, le lieutenant-colonel Edward L. Kennedy Jr. soutient que The Forgotten Soldier n’est en réalité qu’ « un roman intelligemment déguisé en récit véridique. » Pour preuve, les imprécisions ou erreurs qui émaillent le récit : l’insigne de la division Grossdeutschland, par exemple, qui n’était pas placé sur la manche droite de l’uniforme, comme l’écrit Sajer, mais sur la manche gauche, ou l’introuvable Hauptmann (capitaine) Wesreidau, dans la compagnie duquel Sajer aurait servi…

En 1997, dans la même revue, le lieutenant-colonel Douglas E. Nash lui répond point par point et reste convaincu de l’authenticité du récit autobiographique. Le « cas Sajer » (selon la formule de Philippe Carrard (1)) va dès lors passionner les spécialistes et alimenter de nombreux forums de discussion sur internet.

Or, s’il est incontestable que « le récit de Sajer surpasse en vérité et en horreur tout ce qui a été écrit » et que « la peur, le froid, la faim et la blessure de la captivité prennent sous sa plume l'accent et la force terrible de la réalité » (2), il n’est pas moins incontestable qu’il s’agit d’une magistrale forgerie.

Guy Mouminoux naît à Paris 10e le 13 janvier 1927. Son père, Jean Mouminoux, d’ascendance auvergnate (comme son nom l’indique), est un ancien combattant de la Grande guerre. Au moment de son mariage, à Paris en 1912, avec Amélie Faugeron, il est mécanicien (plus tard, il sera chauffeur de taxi). Son épouse est, quant à elle, couturière et originaire du Périgord. De leur union naîtront trois enfants. Guy est le second. En 1931, on les trouve domiciliés au 81, boulevard de Charonne dans le 11e arrondissement de Paris (3), où ils vivent avec François Faugeron, menuisier, grand-père des enfants.

On est donc bien loin de la mère allemande, originaire de la Saxe, dont Guy Mouminoux aurait repris le nom de jeune fille, Sajer, pour s’enrôler dans les rangs de la Wehrmacht… Pas de trace non plus d’une hypothétique installation de la famille en Alsace, à Wissembourg. D’ailleurs, et quoiqu’il en soit, n’aurait-il pas été bien jeune pour endosser l’uniforme en juillet 1942, à tout juste quinze ans et demi ? Les épisodes relatés dans le Soldat oublié ne semblent pas davantage provenir de sa belle-famille : son épouse, Yvette, est issue du bocage vendéen…

Mais alors, de qui Guy Mouminoux s’est-il fait l’interprète ? A qui appartiennent les souvenirs de ces furieux combats sur le front russe ? Comment ces dix-sept cahiers d’écoliers, rédigés entre 1952 et 1957 et « illustrés de dessins précis comme des planches d’anatomie » (4), ont-ils pu voir le jour ?

Le fait qu’ils aient d’abord été publiés par fragments dans un magazine belge pourrait laisser penser qu’il s’agit de souvenirs d’anciens de la Légion Wallonie, dont Mouminoux aurait pu faire la connaissance par le milieu de la bande-dessinée dans l’immédiate après-guerre. A moins qu’il n’ait effectivement connu quelque alsacien lors d’un séjour plus ancien dans cette région rattachée au Reich ? (5) Voilà deux suppositions pour relancer le débat.

Ce qui est désormais certain, c’est qu’il n’a pas vécu directement les horreurs du front russe qu’il a pourtant su évoquer avec un si incroyable talent. Au travail : Guy Sajer n’a pas encore livré tous ses secrets !

---

(1) Nous avons combattu pour Hitler, Armand Colin, 2011 (The French Who Fought for Hitler, Cambridge University Press, 2010, pour l’édition originale).

(2) Comme on peut le lire sur la quatrième de couverture de la réédition de 2019 dans la collection « Tempus » (Perrin).

(3) Archives de Paris, Recensement de population.

(4) Note de l’éditeur, Robert Laffont (1967).

(5) La base de données Mémoire des hommes recense deux Sager déclarés « morts pour la France » sous l’uniforme allemand. 155.190.38.56 (talk) 12:24, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]