Talk:The Country Without a Post Office

A fact from The Country Without a Post Office appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 7 March 2020 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that "The Country Without a Post Office" describes Kashmir as "a land of doomed addresses", because postal services were stopped for seven months during an armed uprising?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2020/March. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/The Country Without a Post Office.

Wikipedia

India: Jammu and Kashmir Low‑importance

	India portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject India, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of India-related topics. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page.IndiaWikipedia:WikiProject IndiaTemplate:WikiProject IndiaIndia articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by WikiProject Jammu and Kashmir (assessed as Mid-importance).

United States Low‑importance

	United States portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions. Template Usage Articles Requested! Become a Member Project Talk Alerts United StatesWikipedia:WikiProject United StatesTemplate:WikiProject United StatesUnited States articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Books

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Books. To participate in the project, please visit its page, where you can join the project and discuss matters related to book articles. To use this banner, please refer to the documentation. To improve this article, please refer to the relevant guideline for the type of work.BooksWikipedia:WikiProject BooksTemplate:WikiProject BooksBook articles

Poetry Low‑importance

	Poetry portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Poetry, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of poetry on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoetryWikipedia:WikiProject PoetryTemplate:WikiProject PoetryPoetry articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Any suggestions/help?

@Cordyceps-Zombie:@Kautilya3: Any suggestions for another DYK hook above... or ways to improve the article? Regards DTM (talk) 11:13, 3 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

ALT0 looks good to me, and possibly to others who know the JNU saga but never knew where the title came from. I can't think of any better hooks. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 19:37, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the comment. DTM (talk) 15:03, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Where the article says Survir Kaul, is this University of Pennsylvania professor Suvir Kaul? (link) If so, I think this should be given as Suvir Kaul (which is how it's spelled on page 24 of ref 5 Ali). The redlink is an invitation for readers to fill in the missing article. – Reidgreg (talk) 14:20, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the suggestion. I redlinked the name and corrected the typo. DTM (talk) 05:00, 23 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:10, 3 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(

Comment or view
Article history

)

ALT0~~... that a cultural event organised in JNU where students were accused of sedition was titled after the poem 'The Country Without a Post Office'?~~ The February 2016 cultural evening organised in JNU against the “judicial killings of Afzal Guru and Maqbool Bhat', the aftermath of which still reverberates across the country, was titled 'The Country Without a Post Office', after the Agha Shahid Ali poem. (THE WEEK), When the event organised to discuss Afzal Guru’s hanging in JNU was named after Shahid’s poem, it wasn’t to claim that India lacked post offices — but to link a protest for Kashmir’s freedom to the voice of a beloved poet.(THE INDIAN EXPRESS)
- ALT1:... that the 2016 cultural event organised at Jawaharlal Nehru University against the judicial killings of two Kashmiri separatists, where students were accused of sedition, was titled The Country Without a Post Office? Source: Same as ALT0
- ALT2:~~... that in the poem The Country Without a Post Office the 'country' is 'Kashmir'?~~The title of the poem derives from an incident that occurred in 1990, when Kashmir rebelled against Indian rule, resulting in hundreds of gruesome and violent deaths, fires...
- ALT3:~~... that The Country Without a Post Office was originally called 'Kashmir Without a Post Office'?~~ "The Country without a Post Office" was originally published as "Kashmir without a Post Office"
- ALT4:~~... that The Country Without a Post Office was dedicated to James Merrill?~~ Source: Dedicated to Ali’s life-long friend James Merrill
- ALT5:~~... that the poem, The Country Without a Post Office, was taken reference to in the Parliament of India in 2016?~~ Source:Agha Shahid Ali’s collection of poems, The Country Without a Post Office, published in 1997, entered the Indian Parliament a week ago, when BJP ministers mistook the country in Shahid’s poem for India

Reviewed: Susmita Mohanty
Comment: ~~Still looking for better hooks; maybe an image too.~~

Created by DiplomatTesterMan (talk). Self-nominated at 11:04, 3 December 2019 (UTC).[reply]

@DiplomatTesterMan: There are a lot of hook options here...I'll come around to that in a minute. This is new enough and long enough, QPQ pending. I don't see any textual issues. As to the hooks...

ALT0: The abbreviation JNU is likely not recognizable enough for readers outside of India (I know I had to click the link).
ALT1: I've changed a couple of prepositions. I do worry it doesn't connect to the poem connection enough. That said, I think it's the best option of these. (Also, "accused" has one S.)
ALT2: This just doesn't...read right to me.
ALT3: Sounds repetitive.
ALT4: You kind of have to know James Merrill to get this one.
ALT5: Not very interesting; many literary works are entered into congressional records and similar.

If there's a better hook that's recognizable to international readers and is focused on the poem collection, it may be better than ALT1, but that's the only hook I like right now. Ping me when a QPQ has been done. Raymie (t • c) 18:22, 6 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Raymie: QPQ added. DTM (talk) 09:13, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Approved for ALT1. Raymie (t • c) 22:55, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I came by to promote this, but ALT1 is too long and really isn't about the subject. The article also needs copyediting for English grammar. Yoninah (talk) 00:53, 8 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You make a fair point on the hook. Yoninah, thoughts? Hopefully DTM can do more copyediting; these Indian English articles are definitely a bit of an issue for me to appropriately edit. Raymie (t • c) 00:59, 8 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

ALT6: ... that "The Country Without a Post Office" describes Kashmir as "a land of doomed addresses" in the 1990s, as postal services were stopped for seven months?

Thanks. I'll take a look at the alt later. But it's not Indian English to begin sentences with The poem was penned down against the backdrop of an armed uprising. Yoninah (talk) 01:04, 8 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yoninah I don't quite follow. By saying it isn't Indian English do you mean that the sentence structure is bad in general, or how someone other than an Indian would talk. I can give it for copyedit if you think the grammar is that bad. My bad.

DTM (talk) 15:39, 8 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I gave the article a thorough edit. I tried to add another sentence showing notability to the lead, but it needs to be embellished, to explain why they are citing the title. In the second paragraph of "Impact and legacy", please explain in a few words what the revocation of Article 370 was, so we can understand what the poem's title has to do with it. Thanks, Yoninah (talk) 23:22, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Here is a suggested tweak of ALT6:
ALT6a: ... that "The Country Without a Post Office" describes Kashmir as "a land of doomed addresses", as postal services were stopped for seven months during an armed uprising? Yoninah (talk) 23:40, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for the delay in replying. The editing done makes the article much better. Two main points have been asked:

It needs to be embellished, to explain why they are citing the title?
In "Impact and legacy" please explain in a few words what the revocation of Article 370 was, so we can understand what the poem's title has to do with it.

Will try to answer these and make the changes in the article accordingly.DTM (talk) 09:11, 3 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have tried addressing the questions, as well as making more changes to other sections of the article. I hope it is ok now? DTM (talk) 09:21, 6 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe now with this expansion different DYK hooks can be chosen too, apart from the one above. DTM (talk) 09:22, 6 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@DiplomatTesterMan: yes, the article looks much better now. Thanks for the expansion. Would you now like to propose other hooks so we can finish up this review? Yoninah (talk) 22:10, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

ALT8a: ... that The Country Without a Post Office bears witness to the tragedy in Kashmir and the author wants the peace to return.
ALT8b: ... that through the metaphor of letters and post-offices Ali bears witness to the tragedy in Kashmir and wants the peace to return.
ALT9: ... that although the collection of poems The Country Without a Post Office is about the tragedy of Kashmir, the author is hopeful of the return of the pandits and the return of peace.

Hooks cited inline. DTM (talk) 07:31, 23 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@DiplomatTesterMan: Please remember that you're trying to attract an international audience that isn't acquainted with or emotional about the topic. You have enough information in the Impact and legacy section alone to come up with a punchy hook. Yoninah (talk) 21:53, 23 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yoninah There are people who are not acquainted with or emotional about this topic within India, within Kashmir.

I agree with finding a more interesting hook. I’m trying.

But this “International audience” is a dicey thing. An Indian wouldn’t be able to understand all Indian history related hooks. A Portuguese wouldn’t understand a Spanish hook even though they are neighbours. An American sports fan wouldn’t be adept with American economics or astrology.

I understand that each hook much reach a “universal audience”, not only an “international one”. A universal audience within our own country as well as others.

So after this soliloquy, those hooks still remain. Gung ho! DTM (talk) 08:45, 24 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, I don't find these ALTs hooky at all. Perhaps Narutolovehinata5 could be of assistance here. Yoninah (talk) 00:04, 25 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'll try to think of some hooks by later, but I'm currently travelling and won't be in the hotel until tonight. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 02:30, 25 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Rereading the discussion above, I have to agree with Yoninah here. The hooks as proposed are too abstract to appeal to those outside India. Remember that Wikipedia is an international project, and hooks are expected to appeal to a worldwide audience, not just Indians. Thinking of hooks have been challenging as much of what I found to be eye-catching involve the highly contentious conflict in Kashmir. If Kashmir conflict-related hooks are to be avoided, one suggestion I could give could be a hook about how the poem inspired a Right to Information Act request for the actual number of post offices in Kashmir. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 11:52, 25 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@DiplomatTesterMan, Raymie, and Yoninah: Following my above suggestion, how does the following sound?

ALT10 ... that the popularity of the poem collection "The Country Without a Post Office" in Kashmir inspired a Right to Information Act request for the actual number of post offices in the region?

Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 12:01, 25 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I would be fine with this. Raymie (t • c) 19:16, 25 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for ALT10. I cut some of the ones I had suggested out. Since I am not the reviewer, I am literally fine with any hook that the reviewer/s and volunteer editor/s choose. I guess this is my second Kashmir hook finding its way to the end of the DYK nom list. Not fun, though I guess it comes with the territory. DTM (talk) 10:26, 26 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A new review is needed to check ALT6, ALT6a, and ALT10. Courtesy ping to Raymie and Yoninah. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 11:55, 26 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Approving ALT6, ALT6a, and ALT10. Each hook is properly cited, mentioned inline, verified by the sources, and are reasonably interesting to a broad audience. The article appears to meet all other DYK criteria. Flibirigit (talk) 01:53, 3 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]