Talk:The Cheech Marin Center for Chicano Art & Culture

A fact from The Cheech Marin Center for Chicano Art & Culture appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 22 July 2020 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that Cheech Marin of Cheech & Chong, a collector of Mexican-American art, is helping develop The Cheech, a center for Chicano art in Riverside, California?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2020/July. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/The Cheech Marin Center for Chicano Art, Culture & Industry.

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Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:20, 17 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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... that Cheech Marin, of Cheech & Chong fame, owns one of the largest private collections of Chicano art and is helping develop The Cheech Marin Center for Chicano Art, Culture & Industry in Riverside, California? Source: "Actor and comedian Cheech Marin, ... a noted collector of Chicano art, is teaming up with the city of Riverside and the Riverside Art Museum to create ... the Cheech Marin Center for Chicano Art, Culture and Industry" [1]
- ALT1: ... that Cheech Marin, of Cheech & Chong, owns one of the largest private collections of Chicano art and is helping develop The Cheech Marin Center for Chicano Art, Culture & Industry in Riverside, California?
- ALT2: ... that Cheech Marin, owner of the largest collection of Chicano art in the world, is working with the city of Riverside, California to open The Cheech, a worldwide center for Chicano art, culture, and industry?
- ALT3: ... that Cheech Marin is a noted collector of Mexican-American art, and is working with the city of Riverside, California to open The Cheech, a world-class center for Chicano art, culture, and industry?

Created by OvertAnalyzer (talk). Self-nominated at 04:31, 12 June 2020 (UTC).[reply]

This is my first DYK nomination. If I didn't quite get it right, feedback would be appreciated.

Comments by Tbhotch

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
Freely licensed: Used in article: Clear at 100px:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: @OvertAnalyzer: See below:

"Does the article cover all major viewpoints in a straightforward manner without using promotional or overly negative language?" My concerns are if "Cheech & Chong fame" and "After a highly successful exhibit" are neutral (although the second quote is not backed up by the source).
- The words "fame" and "highly" have been removed, and a reference was added for the second quote. Added ALT1 hook.
"Does the article contain at least one citation to a reliable source for each paragraph and direct quote?" Technically yes, and I'm might be wrong, but "a 61,420 square feet (5,706 m2) facility located between The Mission Inn Hotel & Spa and the Riverside Municipal Auditorium" or "The initial collection of over 700 works, donated by Cheech Marin, will consist largely of paintings, with some drawings, prints, mixed media, sculptures and photography." are not backed up by the cited source. The sources should be located immediately after.
- Added the appropriate reference for the square footage and location, and another reference for the 700 works of art.
  - @Tbhotch: See comments above:Thank you for reviewing my DYK article nomination. I was resigned to thinking nothing was going to happen with it. I have made an effort to address the issues you mentioned. You made some good points.OvertAnalyzer (talk) 04:08, 11 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Generally DYK has a backlog, so it's normal that articles take this long to be reviewed. Back to the nomination, I don't see any other issue, the article has no copyright violations, the hook is interesting, and both are sourced and neutral. QPQ doesn't apply. I think it's good to go. © Tbhotch^™ (en-3). 02:57, 12 July 2020 (UTC) © Tbhotch^™ (en-3). 01:03, 11 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I came by to promote this, but there's a lot of repetitive wording in the hook. Could you pipe the link? Something like a cultural center? Thanks, Yoninah (talk) 17:34, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Yoninah: You have a good point. I added a third alternate hook that reduces some of the repetitive wording, but I don't think we should eliminate the term "center for Chicano art, culture, and industry". I believe that term is the most important part of the hook. The article is about the center for "Chicano" art and culture. Saying it is "a cultural center" doesn't seem as compelling to me. Please let me know what you think. I can revise it again if you think it is necessary.OvertAnalyzer (talk) 23:49, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the alt. I don't think you mean "worldwide" but "world-class", and even that is quite promotional for a hook. Your alt is also over 200 characters, which is the limit for hook length (and even then, shorter is better), and it still has repetition ("Cheech"..."Cheech"..."Chicano art"..."Chicano art"). Would you consider another hook angle?
ALT3: ~~... that Cheech Marin, owner of the largest collection of Chicano art in the world, has donated 700 artworks to The Cheech, a planned art museum in Riverside, California?~~ Yoninah (talk) 08:46, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

*@Yoninah: I wouldn't entirely object to your proposed ALT3, but I do think that referring to the Center as a museum overlooks the breadth of the planned facility. Please see the ALT3 I proposed. I think it is less important to say that Cheech Marin owns the largest collection of Chicano art in the work, than it is to emphasize what the Center is about. I don't see a way of removing the reuse of the word "Cheech", but I did removed the repeated words "Chicano art". Thanks for helping me work through my first DYK nomination. OvertAnalyzer (talk) 15:12, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@OvertAnalyzer: Yes! ALT3 has a much hookier flavor. I would only add a comma like this:
ALT3a: ... that Cheech Marin, a noted collector of Mexican-American art, is working with the city of Riverside, California, to open The Cheech, a world-class center for Chicano art, culture, and industry?
Is that ok with you? Yoninah (talk) 15:16, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

*@Yoninah: Yes. I agree with the commas. I made the changes to ALT3. My only concern is the final version makes it sound like art is what Cheech Marin is known for, but in reality he is much better known for the comedy duo "Cheech & Chong". Not sure that can be helped given the 200 character limit. OvertAnalyzer (talk) 15:28, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@OvertAnalyzer: please don't overwrite alt hooks. It makes it impossible for set builders and administrators to follow the discussion and see what people are talking about and why hooks were altered. Instead, the reviewer (me) just strikes unused alts when approving. All the hooks don't have to be piled up at the top, either. You'll see that I numbered alt hooks as I went along. I restored the thread and struck the hooks not being used. Thanks, Yoninah (talk) 15:34, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@OvertAnalyzer: Yes, I think your initial hook wording ... that Cheech Marin, of Cheech & Chong fame, is best. And you should probably also consider condensing a world-class center for Chicano art, culture, and industry. What's interesting to you is not necessarily interesting to international readers (like me), but snappy hook wording works every time. Thanks, Yoninah (talk) 15:37, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Yoninah: Thank you for the tip about not overwriting hooks. I was told by @Tbhotch: that the use of the term "of Cheech & Chong fame" was not neutral. I also understand your point about what's interesting to one person might mote be so to others. I see a lot of DYK hooks that seem very obscure. What do you think of the following? OvertAnalyzer (talk) 16:43, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

ALT4: ~~... that Cheech Marin, of the Cheech & Chong comedy duo, and noted collector of Mexican-American art, is helping develop The Cheech, a world-class center for Chicano art in Riverside, California?~~

@OvertAnalyzer: OK. Write it like this please:
ALT4a: ... that Cheech Marin of the Cheech & Chong comedy duo, who is a noted collector of Mexican-American art, is helping develop The Cheech, a world-class center for Chicano art in Riverside, California?

I still think you're losing out on hook interest, but we do honor nominators' preferences. Yoninah (talk) 17:07, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to propose as a final version the following. I don't think the use of the word "fame" in this context is non-neutral, since the Cheech & Chong comedy duo is relatively famous.

ALT5 ~~... that Cheech Marin, of Cheech & Chong fame, is a noted collector of Mexican-American art, and is helping develop The Cheech, a world-class center for Chicano art, in Riverside, California?~~

@OvertAnalyzer: I'm not opposed to the use of the word "fame" as most of our readers are American, but your ALT5 reads very choppily with 6 commas, as you are trying to pack in too much information. Can we go back to your ALT4 with a tweak?
ALT4b: ... that Cheech Marin of Cheech & Chong fame, a noted collector of Mexican-American art, is helping develop The Cheech, a world-class center for Chicano art in Riverside, California? Yoninah (talk) 16:36, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Yoninah: That sounds good to me. Thank you for your help and guidance. OvertAnalyzer (talk) 16:47, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You're welcome. Now I just looked at the article and noted that several elements of the hook weren't mentioned there, which is a DYK requirement, so I added and cited them. Restoring tick for ALT4b per Tbhotch's review. ALT4b good to go. Yoninah (talk) 17:08, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]