Talk:Texas Jack Vermillion

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• I am still learning Wikipedia. It is not easy to use. Here is a talk/discussion page. Jeff Soapy Smith 23:37, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

• Ever since the movie Tombstone, some new information has surfaced regarding this little known gunman. In researching my great grandfather, "Soapy" Smith, I have noticed that many writers and so-called "historians" love to add, what I lovingly refer to as "filler." This is information that is made up or expanded upon, in order to make a story complete. Rather than having just the bare facts, no matter how little, these people add to the story, not caring about the many time permenant damage they are causing.

Lucky for us, the Vermillion family descendants have enough information to discount much of what these "historians" have written. Jeff Soapy Smith 23:45, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Jeff, good. Click on the "my talk" icon next to your name, and that gives you a look at your OWN discussion page (rather than the one for this article). Your page is usually where people leave messages for you. Sbharris 00:52, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. I left this message here because it has to do with Vermillion. My page deals with Soapy Smith. Jeff Soapy Smith 03:16, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

John Wilson Vermillion is not "Texas Jack" Vermillion

The August 2010 issue of The Journal has a well sourced article by Peter Brand that clearly shows John Wilson Vermillion was not the infamous "Texas Jack" and "Shoot-Your-Eye-Out Jack" whose name was John O. Vermillion.

I know that "old stories" die hard and even with good sources editors will fight to maintain the old story. I don't feel like going there so anyone interested is welcome. Jeff Smith (talk) 20:42, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Interesting. I know that Texas Jack, when hired as a deputy by Virgil after the big fire of 1881, was listed as "J.O. Vermillion."

So-- whose photos are those in this article (since they seem to be the same man)? Are they both J.W.Vermillion of W. Virginia? And thus, neither one is of the J.O. who rode with Doc and Wyatt? SBHarris 03:41, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Both photos are of John Wilson Vermillion, not John O. "Texas Jack"/"Shoot-Your-Eye-Out" Jack Vermillion of Tombstone and Soap Gang fame.Jeff Smith (talk) 16:26, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

More and more interesting. Perhaps J.O. really did drown in Lake Michigan near Chicago in about 1900, at the age of about 37, as Earp claims in the Flood manuscript. If so, the conflation of J.W. with him is yet another tall tale perpetrated upon history by Glenn G. Boyer. SBHarris 19:00, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Whole article needs rewrite - wrong person

John W. Vermillion was not "Texas Jack." A new biography of the real "Texas Jack" by Peter Brand shows that it was actually another person, John O. Vermillion, thus most of this articles history is inaccurate. Jeff Smith (talk) 06:58, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

• It was in 2012 when I first made mention that this entire article needs rewriting to reflect new found information. The photographs are not the correct Vermillion in this article. I will once again emphasis that anyone interested in rewriting this page needs to see Peter Brand's book, Wyatt Earp's Vendetta Posse Rider: The Story of "Texas Jack" Vermillion Bunco man (talk) 01:07, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

John Wilson Vermillion was not Texas Jack Vermillion; John Oberland Vermillion was Texas Jack Vermillion

John Wilson Vermillion was NOT Texas Jack Vermillion of Tombstone fame. He never set foot in Arizona and was working as the Webb City Marshal in Missouri in 1880-1881. This is proven by the Webb City records and the records kept by his great granddaughters, which I have seen and copied.

John Oberland Vermillion was Texas Jack Vermillion of Tombstone fame. He was born in 1845 in Culpepper County, Virginia. He fought for the Union in the Ohio Infantry. His Union Pension File details his service and his wide travels in the West. He is listed as J. O. Vermillion in the 1880 Silver City, New Mexico census, aged 34 - carpenter. He is listed as J. O Vermillion in the Pima County, AZ Voter register later in 1880. He is listed as J. O. Vermillion in the Cochise County, AZ voter register in February, 1881. He is listed as J. O. Vermillion when deputized by Virgil Earp in June 1881 in Tombstone, AZ. He is listed as John. O. Vermillion in the Cochise County Voter Register in December, 1881 - aged 36 - carpenter. All the above records are primary sources held at the Arizona Historical Society and the Arizona State Library and Archive.

John Oberland Vermillion died at the home of his brother, Oliver Hess Vermillion, on November 1, 1921, aged 76.

Anyone who uses the incorrect information about John Wilson Vermillion is doing both these families a grave injustice. Brando1882 (talk) 03:36, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

@Brando1882, Wikipedia is built on summarizing reliable secondary sources, not primary ones. A book titled Wyatt Earp's Vendetta Posse Rider: The Story of "Texas Jack" Vermillion has been mentioned. This is indeed a secondary source; the problem is that it seems to be self-published, and per this section, self-published sources are usually - but not always - unreliable by Wikipedia's standards. If the book was written by "an established subject-matter expert, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications", then it may be usable here. Is that the case? 199.208.172.35 (talk) 15:18, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

I have been published by True West and Wild West magazines in the USA and have had 3 x award-winning articles (one of which was the Texas Jack revelation) published by the most respected academic western history association in the USA - The Wild West History Association (WWHA). In addition, my work on the Earp Vendetta posse was included in the Wyatt Earp Anthology, published by the University of North Texas Press in 2019. The chapters for this "2019 Book of Year" were chosen by no less than Gary L. Roberts, Casey Tefertiller and foreworded by John Boessenecker.(All well known authors). In this field, I am considered the established subject-matter expert on Texas Jack Vermillion. I am the only researcher who has invested the time and considerable effort to set the record straight. I have provided the primary sources above, that conclusively prove that the information on Wikipedia is all wrong. Whether people choose to go with incorrect secondary sources, rather than accurate primary sources is up to them, but without primary sources, there would be no accurate publications in the first place. I am glad I have been permitted to add the correct information to the "Talk" page. At least I can refer people seeking the truth to this page for a snap-shot of the truth. Regards, Peter Brand. Brando1882 (talk) 22:10, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Brando1882, can you please provide links to the True West and Wild West magazine articles, and the journal article published by the Wild West History Association ? That would be helpful in evaluating the reliability of your book for use as a reference in this Wikipedia article. If those three articles support your general premise, it would be more straightforward to cite them instead, rather than your self-published book. Cullen328 (talk) 04:11, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

A full list of my work can be found at http://www.tombstonevendetta.com/peterbrandpublished.html

A simple google search of - Peter Brand Earp Vendetta Posse - and you will be hit with pages and pages of references to my work.

Ironically, one of my articles is used as a reference in a wikipedia page on Wyatt Earp. There are also book reviews on Amazon and the Soapy Smith site. I do, however, understand your point and thank you for suggesting that approach. Cheers Brando1882 (talk) 05:16, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Brando1882, I have read several reviews of your book and believe it to be a reliable source. Were there any reviews that disagreed with your conclusion? Cullen328 (talk) 18:48, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Brando1882, can you please email me a copy of the excerpt of your work that was included in "A Wyatt Earp Anthology: Long May His Story Be Told"? Cullen328 (talk) 18:55, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Hi Cullen328 - no one disagreed with the research, as it was impossible to do so. John Wilson Vermillion - the wrong guy on Wikipedia - had kept all his correspondence dating back to 1876. He was actually the City Marshal of Webb City Missouri in 1880-1881 and had all the paperwork to prove it. I was allowed access to his letters and post cards and wanted posters and reward cards etc. He never set foot in Arizona in his life, but his adventures were still fascinating in Missouri. He kept a diary of his job as a Missouri Marshal. I included all the primary sources and copies of his letters and even their envelops in the appendix of my book to show the reader that he was not Texas Jack. In that way, the reader got two biographies for the price of one.

All the primary sources I listed in my post above, census, voter registers, deputy payment records etc. show that John Oberland Vermillion was Texas Jack in Tombstone, and was deputized by Virgil Earp. He later lodged a Civil War Pension file in 1920, as he had fought for the Union. His pension file was over 300 pages of amazing interviews and information. I don't write fiction. I only write fact and the facts were compelling. I published it myself, as most major publishers are only concerned with major names like Wyatt Earp, Doc Holliday and Billy the Kid etc. That does not, in any way, diminish its importance, or the quality of the research and writing. In fact, the book is first class in all respects and has been highly praised by the biggest writers in the field, including Casey Tefertiller, Gary Roberts and John Boessenecker. Like I said, the Wild West History Association in the USA thought so highly of the research that they deemed it worthy of their award. see wildwesthistory.org Brando1882 (talk) 23:34, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

John Oberland Vermillion is the actual "Texas Jack". Confirmed and undisputed by author and researcher Peter Brand. Peter

This article is incorrect. John Oberland Vermillion is the actual "Texas Jack" as confirmed and undisputed by author and historian Peter Brand. 2600:1700:9BF3:80:7959:C983:A90F:CAF3 (talk) 17:34, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Updates July 2024

Some updates to clarify who this person is were made, but I didn't follow through the entire page to ensure consistency (such as in the Later Life section.) It seems based on talk page above that John O. Vermillion is the consensus agreed upon person for years now with no updates made. Will attempt to revisit to make additional edits and cite appropriate sources 24.38.179.52 (talk) 02:11, 20 July 2024 (UTC)